Please don’t waste my time with your archaic comic-book anti-Western rhetoric. It is embarrassing (for you).
KALA AND KALLAR are not the same thing,
if you had bothered to even read the URL link. Kallar refers to a class of Tamil or south Indian caste. Kala refers to ANY Indian (often a Muslim and often not south Indian in Burma) or South Asian or even Westerner, as used by some Burmese, as a derisive term for South Asians and Westerners. This is fact; what you provide is both irrelevant and pure deflection.
This link has nothing to do with Kala or the use of the term in Burma, whether negative
(derogatory) or positive as in Kalagyi or Kala in Pali liturgy in Hindu-Buddhist temples or as a partial name for a village in Burma. You are confusing different meanings and pronunciations of Kala which can mean Black, Time, Grand, Reverence and other meanings. When a South Asian is called a “Kala” by a Bamar person, they aren’t asking for the time, are they ? They aren’t calling the South Asian, “Grand” are they ?
Stop your pretentious and silly deflecting of the evidence I provided and, yes, you are guilty, as charged.
Guilty of constantly deflecting the point at hand, guilty of constantly blaming Westerners
for all of Burma’s problems and not taking any personal responsibility, guilty of tiresome and whining archaic rhetoric that means nothing, refusing to take any responsibility when you are wrong and instead
pointing the finger at Westerners or so-called “Western Publications” because they show you up as being wrong and incapable of defending your point, so you change the subject in classic scapegoating fashion.
Thus you bring up Chinese name-calling and saying the Kala Muslims are better off than than Bamar as a way to deflect from the definition of Kala. Nice try Plan B. It won’t fly. Not all Indian Muslims in Burma are better off than Bamar, and the conservation had nothing to do with Chinese in Burma.
Your deflections are tiresome and the facts remain the same, Kala is sometimes used as a derogatory term by some Bamar in Burma against South Asian and Westerners, and I have known this since before you were even born, when I was lived in Rangoon with the British prior to leaving for Malaya. I was very young, but not so young that I did not know what “Kala” meant, when used by a Englishman or by a Burman (Bamar). So, yes, you are ignorant of your own culture by your own feeble admission. And my Bamar friends
have confirmed my definition of “Kala” and
one admitted using the term a few months ago
against someone he didn’t like (an Indian)
who he claims took money from him.
Thaksin didn’t pay tax on the very large number of shares in Shin Corp that he sold, which were bought by Temasek (a Singapore-Government owned finance coprporation). He or his spokesman argued that tax is not payable on share transactions in Thailand. Was he right or wrong? Does anyone else pay tax on share transactions in Thailand? Who ended up with the shares after Temasek unloaded them? Perhaps somebody who knows the details could enlighten us. Can I ask for facts rather than political hate-rhetoric?
Please do not be ‘just another westerner’ instead of Peter Cohen.
“Plan B,
You don’t even know your own culture.”
It is always refreshing to have someone from the west challenging this protagonist as less knowledgeable of one own heritage. Guilty as charged but not for the reasons.
If the west desire a genuine integration of different races, accusing the majority of using a term familiar in Myanmar as racist is going to be indeed a problem another west useless careless policy that will prolong the quagmire.
As embedded in Myanmar cultures where English words such as ‘Democracy, English and many others’ are directly Burman-ized/Myanmar-ized without regards to the colonists racist attitude.
In this case Kala Muslim fate can not end well with almost everyone in Myanmar except those outside, such Irrawaddy and most other western publications calling the term Kala as racist or derogatory.(Zarni and Tocherian I hope you will read this)
Does being called a Tayoke or Pauk Phau prevent the Chinese every where in Myanmar
from being so far ahead in every way or the Kala mostly Muslim in Maulalyain from being better off than most Bamar?
If Suthep is shot then it’s game over for PM Yingluck as there is no way she could escape responsibility this time. Even my Red Shirt friend from Pitsanulok says that yesterday’s bomb attack was almost enough to get her down there to support Suthep, so perhaps we are nearing a ‘tipping point’. In any case, although no one there can work a crowd like Suthep (I have been watching every night while I have been home with the flu)there are people like the former President of NIDA, Dr Sombat Thanawongthanayawong, who could fill his shoes. BTW does anyone have any information on Tv ratings for Blue Sky: I expect they would be very high when Suthep is on.
mark, lets get one thing right: “accusations” are not “fact” (in law). Thaksin (love him or leave him), ironically may in fact be one of the least corrupt and certainly the most efficient elected political leader in modern thai history. If the coup had not taken place in 2006 which readers may have cheered at the time then the Thai society and economy would be comparable to Malaysia or even Singapore by now. But we are now walking backwards. The “accusations” against him have either proved false or totally trivial in the case of a land sale in Bangkok…I know of no other former leader who is so vilified without any grounds and yet so persistently through amaat-controlled media brainwashing so as to justify the status quo ante power interests and personal greed of the ancien regime.
‘Kalagyi’ was used to describe Muslim Burmese
Independence Hero U Abdul Razak, an ethnic Muslim Burmese-Indian Independence hero from Mandalay. Kalagyi translates as “Big Kala”
or “Honourable Big Black Person.” In the same way, in Burma, towns and temples may have the
name, Kala as well, which is derived (via Pali Hindu religious script) from the Sanskrit and means “Time” but can also mean
“Grand” or “Reverential” which is why holy places often have the word Kala as well.
Kalagyi (Big Kala), Kala (as meaning time or grand in importance as applied to temples, towns, respected elders, and heros) is no way related to Kala, as used as a derogatory terms for South Asians and some Westerners by some Buddhist Burmese, and as used by the British to refer to both Indians and Burmese
during the colonial period. While some Burmese may regard the term as a generic reference to South Asians, it is also used derisively by some Burmese, and was most certainly used in such a manner by the British in colonial India and Burma.
“Muslims in Burma regularly suffer social and religious discrimination. Burmese Buddhists commonly call them, Kala, a derogatory term for South Asians and also used insultingly to describe westerners.”
“While some consider the term abusive and degrading, there’s general acceptance that it takes on a sense of honor, respect and loving kindness when it’s used in the form Kalagyi (Big Kala), to describe independence hero Abdul Razak.”
” … If somebody wanted to kill Suthep they would have shot him (much higher success rate).” – Bialao
I am NOT certain about ‘much higher success’ rate Bialao. But because I had personally met the Kamnan at close quarters I could literally smell him, I could agree with you that the Kamnan Suthep is an ‘easier shot’. Kamnan walks/walked the Bangkok streets by deci-kilometers each day and any Red or White or Black shirted assassin could just merely wait, wave a banknote along with many who line up, and the tired Kamnan would come anear and smile at your eyes for that easy close range killing shot. Then what Bialao? The cowardly assassin gets ‘caught’ and could confess who his paymaster(s) was/were eh, Bialao?
The “N” word is a derogatory term everywhere
and you are wrong. “Kala” is a derogatory term in both Burma and India, was often used by the British as a term of disdain for both Indians and Burmese. They are not generic terms whatsoever. You are completely incorrect. ‘Kala lay’ and ‘Kala gyi’ are not used in the same context as ‘Kala’ as used as a term of disdain. Some people find the term ‘Caucasian’ and ‘Coloured’ as completely acceptable, and the latter term was used
generically-used by mixed-race South Africans to refer to themselves, but it was also used during Apartheid as a racial classification term. The context of the use of the term is what matters, and ‘Kala’ like ‘N’ word has been used derogatorily, and I have seen it used by the colonial British (as I am much older than you) in reference to Burmese and Indians with very clear disdain. So your defence of the term is not accurate, out of historical context, and thus not justified.
Rather than let this distraction continue from these reports it would seem the government could easily swoop in and clear the “Sleeping Sites” as they might be better described. They do have the boys to do the job as seen in this pic: http://chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=506 . But then does the government of Yingluck, and don’t forget Banharn, prefer an election where there is no debate on lese majeste – 112 , the rice fiasco, the water plan disaster ?
Kalar, Tayoke etc are NOT derogatory terms in any way or sensitivity in Myanmar.
These are generic terms used everyday to describe the origin, cultures. There are many very fair skin Indian still called Kalar in Myanmar.
Adding ‘Lu Myo’ describe the origin.
There are many ‘Kalar lay’ or ‘Kalar gyi’ among villages through out Myanmar. The former an endearing name/ reserved for relatives, friends and sons, the latter leaders and persons of influence.
Yes if Ko Aung Moe had a darker complexion from toiling in the field he can be endearingly called a “Kalar Gyi”, a title I am quite sure he will gladly accept. Knowing well that the darker skin color will end once one no longer have to toil in the field and yet the title shall remain.
You can clearly see where the green and grey marquees are placed on the left in both pictures.
You can clearly see that these marquees end about half the way into the rows of crowds.
From the picture above, you can also see that the rows extend out left and right as you get nearer the stage.
I have already counted 50 rows and 60 people across the widest row in Stickman’s picture. Allowing for the fact that the rows in Stickman’s picture get narrower, I would say 3,000 is a fairly decent estimate for the number of people in Stickman’s picture.
If we then double that, as I think Stickman’s shot only shows half the total number of rows when compared with the shot above, we get 6,000 people.
Given that the rows get considerably wider as for the half nearest the stage, I would concede to double the front half of rows (but no more than that as they can’t possibly be more than double the width).
So, in total, there are 3,000 people in Stickman’s picture, plus another 6,000 not shown.
I would say there were about 10,000 people at the time Stickman took his shot and, given that this was when Suthep was appearing, I feel confident in saying this is the maximum Asoke sees.
I’ll even let you double my count and get 20,000.
Given that the areas that aren’t in cool shopping zones are nowhere near as well populated, and that this is the 4th largest site, I will say that the total number of protesters at peak is 50,000, but I will grudgingly let people have an absolute maximum of 100,000.
Not bad, but it’s still only 0.3% of the 30,000,000 people who voted in 2011.
Regarding Stickman’ picture from the link: The rows only really go back as far as the clutch of tents. Having taken a rough but generous count, there are 50 rows going back and there are 60 people across the widest point. In the picture, there are around 3,000 people. Even if we double this to allow for those not shown (and the inevitable imprecision of my counting) it only makes 6,000.
It is astonishing isn’t Srithanonchai. That the ‘Uproot’ protests could draw truly massive and very supportive crowds, in the hundreds of thousands, since November and remain very peaceful, non-violent yet determined. Not much we can do right now but watch how this latest Bangkok street protests culminate.
But in comparison with the very violent very vicious Red/Black shirts protests of Y2010 which were punctuated, from day one, with bombings, assault rifle attacks, grenade launchers and then arson, the city of Bangkok can give two thumbs up to the Kamnan’s Uproot crowd for being well-disciplined and being well-behaved.
And btw, the Kamnan’s Uproot protests had drawn the active participation, at one time or the other, of 20% of Bangkok city’s population according to one poll. So in a sense, the Kamnan’s Uproot ‘civil disobedience’ protests do qualify as a ‘popular people’s revolt’.
If somebody wanted to kill Suthep they would have shot him (much higher success rate). Throwing a grenade is just a publicity stunt/provocation (invitation for coup) probably orchestrated by Suthep himself. What kind of assassin would leave a cache of weapons and a red shirt? That scenario is so unlikely it literallly makes me laugh.
The Kamnan’s ‘Uproot’ crowds are indeed very very dense. Lines long and rows very thick … a sea of humanity snaking all around Bangkok.
Proof? Black-shirted Friends of Thaksin threw a grenade at the crowd yesterday … one dead Uproot protester and 37 more wounded. That’s how dense Kamnan’s crowds are.
#1 Sam Deedes
The Stickman shot. On Wednesday (regrets, I had no camera), the crowd was not as tightly packed so I could walk up the middle of Asoke from the stage to the canopy. It was easy to estimate the number in a row and count rows; that’s what gave 5,000. I’d reckon about double that in Stickman’s Monday shot, because of the tighter packed seating, and more people spilling out the edges (which you can see in Stickman’s other shots).
“Unfortunate that of course no Thai person can complain about or question the major inconvenience for fear of being assaulted.”
Exactly: the protests are “peaceful” only as long as you comply with the protesters. In fact, their “civil disobedience”, as it keeps being called by some gullible papers, boils down to a massive exercise in intimidation and sabotage in order to coerce everybody else to comply with their political goals.
Silom Road was blocked on Monday down through Naradhiwas Road, but today at noon the blockade ended at Soi Convent.
Mostly street vendors had occupied the space, selling protest gear (whistles, t-shirts etc.) but especially near Soi Convent the regular stuff you would expect at any Thai market. The only thing that reminded of politics was the speakers that blared a speech from a stage elsewhere, but seemingly ignored by most.
That first picture shows an impressive, dense crowd near the stage… but keep in mind that it is almost the *whole* Asoke crowd, not a small section of it.
The pic was taken from the Skytrain bridge, which is behind and above the stage. The crowd ends at the row of cars behind the roof structure. I’m no expert at crowd estimates, but it doesn’t look like more than 20,000 people (at the evening peak).
Last few days I’ve been going around on my moped, and find many areas blocked off for what appears no reason what with long stretches of boulevard with nothing but a handful of pedestrians. Usually at the gate (or garbage cans) blocking that section, there’s a “guard”. Sala Daeng is just a talaat nut with people traipsing up and down, interested in a shirt here and there, but no political activism discernible here other than stacks of loudspeakers blasting rants from someone who is not visible.
My Thai wife (stridently anti-Thaksin) excuses the seemingly overwrought road blocks as ways to keep potential drive-by guerillas at a distance from the mob, which she says is more necessary at night. However, coming toward Silom on Rama IV during the day, there was a shallow wall of sandbags several hundred meters from the Sala Daeng intersection limiting traffic coming the other way (toward Klong Toey) – which, by my wife’s logic, would mean the protesters want to guard the bridge where Rama IV flies over Sathorn Road. This makes no sense since there is no mob at the Sathorn/Rama IV intersection let alone the bridge that the sandbag wall is supposedly blocking. Unfortunate that of course no Thai person can complain about or question the major inconvenience for fear of being assaulted.
From this I gather 2 things: the anti-government protesters: They want to inconvenience people for no reason in their attempt to project power with oversized protest zones which draw a paucity of protesters.
Second, the Thai media is controlled by those who sympathize with the Democrats. All reportage is focused, at this moment, on the attempt on Suthep’s life and the investigation of Yingluck/rice farmers. At this time (Saturday midday) there is no actual reportage on how ineffective the shutdown has actually been so far in mustering a groundswell of real local activism for any sustained period. This is true of the Western outlets (BKK Post/Nation) and my wife also confirms no Thai channels are reporting as such.
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Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Plan B,
Please don’t waste my time with your archaic comic-book anti-Western rhetoric. It is embarrassing (for you).
KALA AND KALLAR are not the same thing,
if you had bothered to even read the URL link. Kallar refers to a class of Tamil or south Indian caste. Kala refers to ANY Indian (often a Muslim and often not south Indian in Burma) or South Asian or even Westerner, as used by some Burmese, as a derisive term for South Asians and Westerners. This is fact; what you provide is both irrelevant and pure deflection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallar_%28caste%29
This link has nothing to do with Kala or the use of the term in Burma, whether negative
(derogatory) or positive as in Kalagyi or Kala in Pali liturgy in Hindu-Buddhist temples or as a partial name for a village in Burma. You are confusing different meanings and pronunciations of Kala which can mean Black, Time, Grand, Reverence and other meanings. When a South Asian is called a “Kala” by a Bamar person, they aren’t asking for the time, are they ? They aren’t calling the South Asian, “Grand” are they ?
Stop your pretentious and silly deflecting of the evidence I provided and, yes, you are guilty, as charged.
Guilty of constantly deflecting the point at hand, guilty of constantly blaming Westerners
for all of Burma’s problems and not taking any personal responsibility, guilty of tiresome and whining archaic rhetoric that means nothing, refusing to take any responsibility when you are wrong and instead
pointing the finger at Westerners or so-called “Western Publications” because they show you up as being wrong and incapable of defending your point, so you change the subject in classic scapegoating fashion.
Thus you bring up Chinese name-calling and saying the Kala Muslims are better off than than Bamar as a way to deflect from the definition of Kala. Nice try Plan B. It won’t fly. Not all Indian Muslims in Burma are better off than Bamar, and the conservation had nothing to do with Chinese in Burma.
Your deflections are tiresome and the facts remain the same, Kala is sometimes used as a derogatory term by some Bamar in Burma against South Asian and Westerners, and I have known this since before you were even born, when I was lived in Rangoon with the British prior to leaving for Malaya. I was very young, but not so young that I did not know what “Kala” meant, when used by a Englishman or by a Burman (Bamar). So, yes, you are ignorant of your own culture by your own feeble admission. And my Bamar friends
have confirmed my definition of “Kala” and
one admitted using the term a few months ago
against someone he didn’t like (an Indian)
who he claims took money from him.
Goodbye.
Thoughts of a pro-government leader
Thaksin didn’t pay tax on the very large number of shares in Shin Corp that he sold, which were bought by Temasek (a Singapore-Government owned finance coprporation). He or his spokesman argued that tax is not payable on share transactions in Thailand. Was he right or wrong? Does anyone else pay tax on share transactions in Thailand? Who ended up with the shares after Temasek unloaded them? Perhaps somebody who knows the details could enlighten us. Can I ask for facts rather than political hate-rhetoric?
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Please do not be ‘just another westerner’ instead of Peter Cohen.
“Plan B,
You don’t even know your own culture.”
It is always refreshing to have someone from the west challenging this protagonist as less knowledgeable of one own heritage. Guilty as charged but not for the reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallar_%28caste%29
If the west desire a genuine integration of different races, accusing the majority of using a term familiar in Myanmar as racist is going to be indeed a problem another west useless careless policy that will prolong the quagmire.
As embedded in Myanmar cultures where English words such as ‘Democracy, English and many others’ are directly Burman-ized/Myanmar-ized without regards to the colonists racist attitude.
In this case Kala Muslim fate can not end well with almost everyone in Myanmar except those outside, such Irrawaddy and most other western publications calling the term Kala as racist or derogatory.(Zarni and Tocherian I hope you will read this)
Does being called a Tayoke or Pauk Phau prevent the Chinese every where in Myanmar
from being so far ahead in every way or the Kala mostly Muslim in Maulalyain from being better off than most Bamar?
The shutdown: In honor of NN
If Suthep is shot then it’s game over for PM Yingluck as there is no way she could escape responsibility this time. Even my Red Shirt friend from Pitsanulok says that yesterday’s bomb attack was almost enough to get her down there to support Suthep, so perhaps we are nearing a ‘tipping point’. In any case, although no one there can work a crowd like Suthep (I have been watching every night while I have been home with the flu)there are people like the former President of NIDA, Dr Sombat Thanawongthanayawong, who could fill his shoes. BTW does anyone have any information on Tv ratings for Blue Sky: I expect they would be very high when Suthep is on.
Thoughts of a pro-government leader
mark, lets get one thing right: “accusations” are not “fact” (in law). Thaksin (love him or leave him), ironically may in fact be one of the least corrupt and certainly the most efficient elected political leader in modern thai history. If the coup had not taken place in 2006 which readers may have cheered at the time then the Thai society and economy would be comparable to Malaysia or even Singapore by now. But we are now walking backwards. The “accusations” against him have either proved false or totally trivial in the case of a land sale in Bangkok…I know of no other former leader who is so vilified without any grounds and yet so persistently through amaat-controlled media brainwashing so as to justify the status quo ante power interests and personal greed of the ancien regime.
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Plan B,
You don’t even know your own culture.
‘Kalagyi’ was used to describe Muslim Burmese
Independence Hero U Abdul Razak, an ethnic Muslim Burmese-Indian Independence hero from Mandalay. Kalagyi translates as “Big Kala”
or “Honourable Big Black Person.” In the same way, in Burma, towns and temples may have the
name, Kala as well, which is derived (via Pali Hindu religious script) from the Sanskrit and means “Time” but can also mean
“Grand” or “Reverential” which is why holy places often have the word Kala as well.
Kalagyi (Big Kala), Kala (as meaning time or grand in importance as applied to temples, towns, respected elders, and heros) is no way related to Kala, as used as a derogatory terms for South Asians and some Westerners by some Buddhist Burmese, and as used by the British to refer to both Indians and Burmese
during the colonial period. While some Burmese may regard the term as a generic reference to South Asians, it is also used derisively by some Burmese, and was most certainly used in such a manner by the British in colonial India and Burma.
“Muslims in Burma regularly suffer social and religious discrimination. Burmese Buddhists commonly call them, Kala, a derogatory term for South Asians and also used insultingly to describe westerners.”
“While some consider the term abusive and degrading, there’s general acceptance that it takes on a sense of honor, respect and loving kindness when it’s used in the form Kalagyi (Big Kala), to describe independence hero Abdul Razak.”
http://www2.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=8463&Submit=Submit
The shutdown: In honor of NN
” … If somebody wanted to kill Suthep they would have shot him (much higher success rate).” – Bialao
I am NOT certain about ‘much higher success’ rate Bialao. But because I had personally met the Kamnan at close quarters I could literally smell him, I could agree with you that the Kamnan Suthep is an ‘easier shot’. Kamnan walks/walked the Bangkok streets by deci-kilometers each day and any Red or White or Black shirted assassin could just merely wait, wave a banknote along with many who line up, and the tired Kamnan would come anear and smile at your eyes for that easy close range killing shot. Then what Bialao? The cowardly assassin gets ‘caught’ and could confess who his paymaster(s) was/were eh, Bialao?
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Plan B,
The “N” word is a derogatory term everywhere
and you are wrong. “Kala” is a derogatory term in both Burma and India, was often used by the British as a term of disdain for both Indians and Burmese. They are not generic terms whatsoever. You are completely incorrect. ‘Kala lay’ and ‘Kala gyi’ are not used in the same context as ‘Kala’ as used as a term of disdain. Some people find the term ‘Caucasian’ and ‘Coloured’ as completely acceptable, and the latter term was used
generically-used by mixed-race South Africans to refer to themselves, but it was also used during Apartheid as a racial classification term. The context of the use of the term is what matters, and ‘Kala’ like ‘N’ word has been used derogatorily, and I have seen it used by the colonial British (as I am much older than you) in reference to Burmese and Indians with very clear disdain. So your defence of the term is not accurate, out of historical context, and thus not justified.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
Rather than let this distraction continue from these reports it would seem the government could easily swoop in and clear the “Sleeping Sites” as they might be better described. They do have the boys to do the job as seen in this pic: http://chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=506 . But then does the government of Yingluck, and don’t forget Banharn, prefer an election where there is no debate on lese majeste – 112 , the rice fiasco, the water plan disaster ?
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Peter Cohen
Kalar, Tayoke etc are NOT derogatory terms in any way or sensitivity in Myanmar.
These are generic terms used everyday to describe the origin, cultures. There are many very fair skin Indian still called Kalar in Myanmar.
Adding ‘Lu Myo’ describe the origin.
There are many ‘Kalar lay’ or ‘Kalar gyi’ among villages through out Myanmar. The former an endearing name/ reserved for relatives, friends and sons, the latter leaders and persons of influence.
Yes if Ko Aung Moe had a darker complexion from toiling in the field he can be endearingly called a “Kalar Gyi”, a title I am quite sure he will gladly accept. Knowing well that the darker skin color will end once one no longer have to toil in the field and yet the title shall remain.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
If you compare Stickman’s picture with the picture from:
http://globalnews.ca/news/1082209/travelling-to-thailand-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-protests/
You can clearly see where the green and grey marquees are placed on the left in both pictures.
You can clearly see that these marquees end about half the way into the rows of crowds.
From the picture above, you can also see that the rows extend out left and right as you get nearer the stage.
I have already counted 50 rows and 60 people across the widest row in Stickman’s picture. Allowing for the fact that the rows in Stickman’s picture get narrower, I would say 3,000 is a fairly decent estimate for the number of people in Stickman’s picture.
If we then double that, as I think Stickman’s shot only shows half the total number of rows when compared with the shot above, we get 6,000 people.
Given that the rows get considerably wider as for the half nearest the stage, I would concede to double the front half of rows (but no more than that as they can’t possibly be more than double the width).
So, in total, there are 3,000 people in Stickman’s picture, plus another 6,000 not shown.
I would say there were about 10,000 people at the time Stickman took his shot and, given that this was when Suthep was appearing, I feel confident in saying this is the maximum Asoke sees.
I’ll even let you double my count and get 20,000.
Given that the areas that aren’t in cool shopping zones are nowhere near as well populated, and that this is the 4th largest site, I will say that the total number of protesters at peak is 50,000, but I will grudgingly let people have an absolute maximum of 100,000.
Not bad, but it’s still only 0.3% of the 30,000,000 people who voted in 2011.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
Regarding Stickman’ picture from the link: The rows only really go back as far as the clutch of tents. Having taken a rough but generous count, there are 50 rows going back and there are 60 people across the widest point. In the picture, there are around 3,000 people. Even if we double this to allow for those not shown (and the inevitable imprecision of my counting) it only makes 6,000.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
It is astonishing isn’t Srithanonchai. That the ‘Uproot’ protests could draw truly massive and very supportive crowds, in the hundreds of thousands, since November and remain very peaceful, non-violent yet determined. Not much we can do right now but watch how this latest Bangkok street protests culminate.
But in comparison with the very violent very vicious Red/Black shirts protests of Y2010 which were punctuated, from day one, with bombings, assault rifle attacks, grenade launchers and then arson, the city of Bangkok can give two thumbs up to the Kamnan’s Uproot crowd for being well-disciplined and being well-behaved.
And btw, the Kamnan’s Uproot protests had drawn the active participation, at one time or the other, of 20% of Bangkok city’s population according to one poll. So in a sense, the Kamnan’s Uproot ‘civil disobedience’ protests do qualify as a ‘popular people’s revolt’.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/390067/poll-finds-80-of-bangkokians-have-taken-no-part-in-shutdown-rallies
The shutdown: In honor of NN
If somebody wanted to kill Suthep they would have shot him (much higher success rate). Throwing a grenade is just a publicity stunt/provocation (invitation for coup) probably orchestrated by Suthep himself. What kind of assassin would leave a cache of weapons and a red shirt? That scenario is so unlikely it literallly makes me laugh.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
The Kamnan’s ‘Uproot’ crowds are indeed very very dense. Lines long and rows very thick … a sea of humanity snaking all around Bangkok.
Proof? Black-shirted Friends of Thaksin threw a grenade at the crowd yesterday … one dead Uproot protester and 37 more wounded. That’s how dense Kamnan’s crowds are.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
#1 Sam Deedes
The Stickman shot. On Wednesday (regrets, I had no camera), the crowd was not as tightly packed so I could walk up the middle of Asoke from the stage to the canopy. It was easy to estimate the number in a row and count rows; that’s what gave 5,000. I’d reckon about double that in Stickman’s Monday shot, because of the tighter packed seating, and more people spilling out the edges (which you can see in Stickman’s other shots).
The shutdown: In honor of NN
“Unfortunate that of course no Thai person can complain about or question the major inconvenience for fear of being assaulted.”
Exactly: the protests are “peaceful” only as long as you comply with the protesters. In fact, their “civil disobedience”, as it keeps being called by some gullible papers, boils down to a massive exercise in intimidation and sabotage in order to coerce everybody else to comply with their political goals.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
Silom Road was blocked on Monday down through Naradhiwas Road, but today at noon the blockade ended at Soi Convent.
Mostly street vendors had occupied the space, selling protest gear (whistles, t-shirts etc.) but especially near Soi Convent the regular stuff you would expect at any Thai market. The only thing that reminded of politics was the speakers that blared a speech from a stage elsewhere, but seemingly ignored by most.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
That first picture shows an impressive, dense crowd near the stage… but keep in mind that it is almost the *whole* Asoke crowd, not a small section of it.
The pic was taken from the Skytrain bridge, which is behind and above the stage. The crowd ends at the row of cars behind the roof structure. I’m no expert at crowd estimates, but it doesn’t look like more than 20,000 people (at the evening peak).
The shutdown: In honor of NN
Last few days I’ve been going around on my moped, and find many areas blocked off for what appears no reason what with long stretches of boulevard with nothing but a handful of pedestrians. Usually at the gate (or garbage cans) blocking that section, there’s a “guard”. Sala Daeng is just a talaat nut with people traipsing up and down, interested in a shirt here and there, but no political activism discernible here other than stacks of loudspeakers blasting rants from someone who is not visible.
My Thai wife (stridently anti-Thaksin) excuses the seemingly overwrought road blocks as ways to keep potential drive-by guerillas at a distance from the mob, which she says is more necessary at night. However, coming toward Silom on Rama IV during the day, there was a shallow wall of sandbags several hundred meters from the Sala Daeng intersection limiting traffic coming the other way (toward Klong Toey) – which, by my wife’s logic, would mean the protesters want to guard the bridge where Rama IV flies over Sathorn Road. This makes no sense since there is no mob at the Sathorn/Rama IV intersection let alone the bridge that the sandbag wall is supposedly blocking. Unfortunate that of course no Thai person can complain about or question the major inconvenience for fear of being assaulted.
From this I gather 2 things: the anti-government protesters: They want to inconvenience people for no reason in their attempt to project power with oversized protest zones which draw a paucity of protesters.
Second, the Thai media is controlled by those who sympathize with the Democrats. All reportage is focused, at this moment, on the attempt on Suthep’s life and the investigation of Yingluck/rice farmers. At this time (Saturday midday) there is no actual reportage on how ineffective the shutdown has actually been so far in mustering a groundswell of real local activism for any sustained period. This is true of the Western outlets (BKK Post/Nation) and my wife also confirms no Thai channels are reporting as such.