Nonethless, gossip takes different forms in different cultures, and has different dynamics. “Gossip Girls” was an American tv show about wealthy young socialites in NY … not quite the same thing as disorderly monks carrying tales and disrupting villages in Buddhaghosa or rumors of monks with magical powers sweeping the northeast at the turn of the 20th century, response to Chulalongkorn’s new system of taxation. A Dhammaraja does not gossip; it’s the speech form of lesser beings in the Buddhist cosmos. Journalists in Thailand are often portrayed by the military as persons with “bad intentions” (which produce bad karmic outcomes) and are warned to tow the government line or not to waste their time with …
Seems unlikely really that the CIA was helping Thai police when the CIA wasn’t created until 1947. Might have been the OSS but as I recall the transition from OSS to CIA wasn’t smooth and I imagine nobody was paying much attention to Thailand at all except to scupper the war reparations that Churchill was determined to levy. He lost.
As I recall, the CIA really only exerted its improper influence in Thailand after it became militarised during the Vietnam war. The good ole Americans were determined not to get kicked out of SE Asia again so set about creating a safe haven under puppet kings and governments. Hence the preferred treatment under the Amity treaty and others.
Of course, Thais, being the bright and culturally sophisticated people they are fell for the CIA-assisted propaganda campaigns hook line and sinker. Has to be a reason USA chose Thailand, and the susceptibility of the populace was inevitably a major consideration.
And as is clear from comments on this site, it also draws a lot of fanboys from the “all Thais are stupid” crowd that tends to populate the local expat forums.
As opposed to those who think that all Thais are noble savages, possessed of some secret that magically transforms the inadequate into the superman. Great.
My friend, take a look at the numbers. Average IQ in Thailand – 89 – has been for at least 12 years.
Now have a look at the national averages for other countries and ask ‘how can this be?’Then look at the culture in detail, beyond the mor lam and tuneless Chinese singing and the pop songs that all sound the same.
Then perhaps the seeds of understanding will take root. Real news isn’t about what the parasites at the top are doing, its ALL about what the people are saying between themselves when nobody with a gun is listening. To that extent those who comment on the inessentials’ are closer to what’s really going on that any of the ‘noble savage’ fanbois are.
As for local ex-pat forums, most are populated by elderly fat sex-addicts and young barstool cowboys who couldn’t make it back home and won’t make it anywhere else either. Pay attention to what they say if you want, but I won’t be.
Interesting Nick. Your view of things certainly does seem to shift to suit whatever argument happens to suit at the time.
Two years ago, on this site, you said unequivocally “And yes, i have been aware for the past ten years that Dhammakaya supports Thaksin.”
That made you appear to be “on top of things” at the time and your apparent revision here makes you appear to agree with the blatant prevaricator Jim Taylor, whom you have often called out for his tendency to deny obvious truths.
Any other little shifts in Red-Yellow color perception we should know about?
Bangkok Post today reports: “A large number of explosives, weapons, rounds of ammunition and other items were seized during a raid on the house of red-shirt member Wutthipong “Ko Tee’’ Kochathammakun in Lam Luk Ka district on Saturday… ”
‘ how much can the palace PR machine do to promote his image? ”
A thousand times more than the PR machines of any other institution or official in Thailand. They have already done his image worlds of good by potraying him (on an almost daily basis via TV, Radio, the print media and the internet ) as a dutiful, loyal and loving son to his much revered father. And make no mistake, whether this portrayal is true or false, millions of Thais are swallowing it whole. Symbols are power and the palace has stage-managed the symbolism and rituals of morning and secession almost perfectly.
The King’s New Years message to the nation is another example of his positive branding. His plea to all sides of the political spectrum to seek comman ground and reconciliation was almost pitch perfect. He looked and sounded like the quintessential modern head of state. In today’s media driven world perception is, sadly, reality.
On the contrary, Christine, “by focusing on inessentials”, posters here are acting exactly the way real “reporters” are paid to act by their corporate masters.
The focus on the folks who “get their ritual ducks all lined up” is as relevant to Thai political reality as the focus on Trump as Putin’s puppet is to American political reality.
Your jejeune suggestion that there is something “sexist” about thinking that gossip about who skydives naked amongst the billionaires of the world is irrelevant to political discourse reminds me that folks who opposed Hillary were sexist in her loss to Obama, in her victory over Sanders, and in her destruction of the Democratic Party in handing the White House to Trump. Bad sexism! Bad!
It heartens me to recall your classist and sexist description of Thailand’s working class Isanites as “pedicab drivers, sex workers and so on” because, even more than your wildly off-the-mark assertions about what is happening in Thailand based on rumors, that litany exemplifies just exactly how out of touch you are with the realities of Thailand in 2017.
As Giles pointed out in the introduction to the pamphlet that led to his exile, this tendency to focus exclusively on the “elite”, and the obscurantist mumbo-jumbo they use to titillate each other when they aren’t swanning it in a European resort, is “worthless”.
Except as clickbait of course.
And as is clear from comments on this site, it also draws a lot of fanboys from the “all Thais are stupid” crowd that tends to populate the local expat forums.
On your claim that our I-O is imbalance, i dont get this, so far in both reference years (I-O 2005 and 2010) it has been “very much” balanced. I use I-O table for me master’s thesis (on ETPs tourism impact) and using it again as part of my SAM table in my phd’s thesis (need to update I-O now for 2014), and i found it all balance.
May I know which part of the I-O table is having imbalance?
Well researched and well written article I found on Mandala pages for many months. Though I agree with the substances of race and religious law in general, I don’t agree with the fact that Ma Ba Tha led this movement since Ma Ba Tha is an organisation of Monks who don’t abide the Buddha’s vinaya or Law. Buddhist monks’ principle task is to realise their selfs and enlightened themselves, not to meddle in mundane affairs.
I always want to support this movement whole heartedly if it were led by laities’ organisation.
To alleviate some of the angst over gossip as an analytic category …
Gossip is a culturally-specific speech form that offers interesting if not necessary insights into Thai political dynamics for the reasons laid out in the article.
Which type of gossip will get you killed?
An important distinction, one might think.
What of the vicious gossip about his second and third wives set about by infuriated former in-laws of the crown prince, or Vajiralongkorn’s playing off same (releasing pornographic photos) to escape one mistress and move on to the next? What of gossip as deliberate misinformation set about by the power elite like the Pramoj brothers and the Democrats after King Ananda’s death?
If it influences the succession, it’s relevant.
With regard to the circumstances of Ananda’s death, the intent of the gossip (misinformation) disseminated by royalists and their police allies (funded by the United States and the CIA) was to destroy once and for all any chance of a comeback of democratic rival Pridi Phanomyong. It also functioned as a form of blackmail for the Mahidols.
What if the police focused on a different suspect?
The collateral damage was the lives of three innocent men — two hereditary palace retainers and a royal secretary involved in rice deals counter to royal interests. The execution of known innocents after a ridiculous show trial was a blemish on everyone who participated. The trials and consistent mangling of fact and interpretation exposed the Thai justice system for the farce that it is.
Making such a mockery of the justice system damaged Thailand’s reputation as a modern nation-state in the eyes of the international community. For select royals and their police and business associates, however, it was well worth the risk.
One apparent goal of this reverse dynamic — whereby X does something outrageous, insiders gossip (tell the truth) as a form of social control, and the junta retaliates via article 112 — is to totally extinguish — to make null and void (mokha) — the power and influence of former Prime Minister Thaksin, his followers and associates.
For farang commentators on NM, the word “gossip” is used to discredit journalists critical of the monarchy. By focusing on inessentials and female-related personal things — tattoos, improper dress, adultery and the like — it is implied, they are not real reporters.
In reporting gossip about royals — as opposed to manly man things like drug murders, arms deals, suspected insider trading on the stock market and the like — these men are like girls.
It one is looking at evolving patterns of power in the interregnum, and the production of viable heirs is the major dynamic of a monarchy, not only are the connections between gender and power (and Swiss medical clinics which promise “rejuvenation” in its many aspects) worthy of consideration, but also the interplay between Article 112 and Article 44 of the interim constitution.
Because a society operates via different political and cultural dynamics does not mean that it’s backward or its people are stupid: that is the basis of colonial and post-colonial thought, which got Thailand into this position in the first place. Where would the Thai military, or the former king or crown prince, for that matter, be without 20th century American patronage in rooting out state enemies, real or imagined?
The king’s resurrecting medieval practices as a form of privilege, national identity and resistance is odd, but worthy of note.
Because the behavior of national leaders provides “clickbait” does not mean the content is irrelevant. Au contraire. The U.S. is looking pretty backwards now; both the ascension of Rama X and the rise of Donald Trump reveal very dark aspects of their respective societies.
Both leaders are similar in their despicable treatment of women and their approaches to power; each has pushed abuse of both to the limits of their respective societies.
Given their respective attacks on democratic institutions, secrets and the revelation of secrets is currently a driving force in both societies where quite robust attempts are being made to discredit and frighten the populace at large through the denial of basic civil rights and the violation of basic human rights.
Equally fascinating is the shifting composition of their inner circles, and the fate of their various members.
Suthida’s position is no more enviable than that of Melania Trump, the difference being, of course, that Suthida could end up disappeared, not just divorced and stripped of assets. Both have already been humiliated to the max. The interesting point is Suthida’s extraordinary military promotions as strategy. At some point, her position becomes dangerous, indeed. The ambiguity is what makes the move so powerful.
For both Donald Trump and King Maha Vajiralongkorn fidelity towards wealth and power far overrides any form of family loyalty; their children can be discarded as easily as their spouses. The relationship between “clickbait” and policy is frightening, indeed.
The attitudes of powerful and not-so-powerful men towards women as spouses, mistresses, daughters, heads of ministries, prime ministers or scholars says a lot. It’s information. Imagine political analysis with it and without it. One of the former is the norm.
This is an interesting question: Given the life history and personal predilections of Rama X, his near limitless wealth, and his control of the royal regalia (which, ahem, are assumed to have magical properties), how much can the palace PR machine do to promote his image? And what image would that be? He wants to be a military king. He grew up experiencing the realities, not the ideologies or fantasies, of the Ninth Reign. He is, in the manner of Rama V, systematically expanding his power and influence. The difference is, he’s old, not young. It’s a new global era.
One point of this article is that everyone is afraid, or nearly everyone. It’s worth noting the difference.
These are unique, nearly unimaginable, cultural and political dynamics.
Morgan – your very good analysis is marred by the way you look down on Thais. These are an incredibly brave people, when pushed to a point where they have to stand up. I saw this during May ’92’s uprising. I will never, for the rest of my life, forget and cease to respect the immense courage of those who refused to cower to brutal, terrifying force.
Ryan K – re. Bumiphol, I am struck by how all Thai communities I’ve seen in Australia STILL have adoring photos of the late King, and very many Thais STILL wearing black. I have n’t seen a single example of such adoration for the new king. Not one.
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Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
Nonethless, gossip takes different forms in different cultures, and has different dynamics. “Gossip Girls” was an American tv show about wealthy young socialites in NY … not quite the same thing as disorderly monks carrying tales and disrupting villages in Buddhaghosa or rumors of monks with magical powers sweeping the northeast at the turn of the 20th century, response to Chulalongkorn’s new system of taxation. A Dhammaraja does not gossip; it’s the speech form of lesser beings in the Buddhist cosmos. Journalists in Thailand are often portrayed by the military as persons with “bad intentions” (which produce bad karmic outcomes) and are warned to tow the government line or not to waste their time with …
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
When the trials were going on,
In the 1950s
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
Seems unlikely really that the CIA was helping Thai police when the CIA wasn’t created until 1947. Might have been the OSS but as I recall the transition from OSS to CIA wasn’t smooth and I imagine nobody was paying much attention to Thailand at all except to scupper the war reparations that Churchill was determined to levy. He lost.
As I recall, the CIA really only exerted its improper influence in Thailand after it became militarised during the Vietnam war. The good ole Americans were determined not to get kicked out of SE Asia again so set about creating a safe haven under puppet kings and governments. Hence the preferred treatment under the Amity treaty and others.
Of course, Thais, being the bright and culturally sophisticated people they are fell for the CIA-assisted propaganda campaigns hook line and sinker. Has to be a reason USA chose Thailand, and the susceptibility of the populace was inevitably a major consideration.
Why Cambodia’s rice industry needs a new strategy
Wow! Mike Fung has Bill gates on “Quick dial” Now we know! Very credible.
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
Are you having a laff? Pau totally funded and supported
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
And as is clear from comments on this site, it also draws a lot of fanboys from the “all Thais are stupid” crowd that tends to populate the local expat forums.
As opposed to those who think that all Thais are noble savages, possessed of some secret that magically transforms the inadequate into the superman. Great.
My friend, take a look at the numbers. Average IQ in Thailand – 89 – has been for at least 12 years.
Now have a look at the national averages for other countries and ask ‘how can this be?’Then look at the culture in detail, beyond the mor lam and tuneless Chinese singing and the pop songs that all sound the same.
Then perhaps the seeds of understanding will take root. Real news isn’t about what the parasites at the top are doing, its ALL about what the people are saying between themselves when nobody with a gun is listening. To that extent those who comment on the inessentials’ are closer to what’s really going on that any of the ‘noble savage’ fanbois are.
As for local ex-pat forums, most are populated by elderly fat sex-addicts and young barstool cowboys who couldn’t make it back home and won’t make it anywhere else either. Pay attention to what they say if you want, but I won’t be.
Why Cambodia’s rice industry needs a new strategy
Comment is easier than an new idea. Contact Bill Gate and NGO to buy rice for the countries people in starvation and bulk storage for future.
The perplexing case of Wat Dhammakaya
Interesting Nick. Your view of things certainly does seem to shift to suit whatever argument happens to suit at the time.
Two years ago, on this site, you said unequivocally “And yes, i have been aware for the past ten years that Dhammakaya supports Thaksin.”
That made you appear to be “on top of things” at the time and your apparent revision here makes you appear to agree with the blatant prevaricator Jim Taylor, whom you have often called out for his tendency to deny obvious truths.
Any other little shifts in Red-Yellow color perception we should know about?
http://www.newmandala.org/bangkoks-last-red-shirt-fortress/#comment-1922404
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
Bangkok Post today reports: “A large number of explosives, weapons, rounds of ammunition and other items were seized during a raid on the house of red-shirt member Wutthipong “Ko Tee’’ Kochathammakun in Lam Luk Ka district on Saturday… ”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1217029/explosives-firearms-seized-at-red-shirt-house
Perhaps all those war weapons were meant to defend Phra Dhammachayo and Wat Dhammakaya? nuff said.
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
A small and real question. The CIA was formed in late 1947. Was there much CIA or OSS funding going to the Thai police in 1946 and 1947?
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
‘ how much can the palace PR machine do to promote his image? ”
A thousand times more than the PR machines of any other institution or official in Thailand. They have already done his image worlds of good by potraying him (on an almost daily basis via TV, Radio, the print media and the internet ) as a dutiful, loyal and loving son to his much revered father. And make no mistake, whether this portrayal is true or false, millions of Thais are swallowing it whole. Symbols are power and the palace has stage-managed the symbolism and rituals of morning and secession almost perfectly.
The King’s New Years message to the nation is another example of his positive branding. His plea to all sides of the political spectrum to seek comman ground and reconciliation was almost pitch perfect. He looked and sounded like the quintessential modern head of state. In today’s media driven world perception is, sadly, reality.
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
On the contrary, Christine, “by focusing on inessentials”, posters here are acting exactly the way real “reporters” are paid to act by their corporate masters.
The focus on the folks who “get their ritual ducks all lined up” is as relevant to Thai political reality as the focus on Trump as Putin’s puppet is to American political reality.
Your jejeune suggestion that there is something “sexist” about thinking that gossip about who skydives naked amongst the billionaires of the world is irrelevant to political discourse reminds me that folks who opposed Hillary were sexist in her loss to Obama, in her victory over Sanders, and in her destruction of the Democratic Party in handing the White House to Trump. Bad sexism! Bad!
It heartens me to recall your classist and sexist description of Thailand’s working class Isanites as “pedicab drivers, sex workers and so on” because, even more than your wildly off-the-mark assertions about what is happening in Thailand based on rumors, that litany exemplifies just exactly how out of touch you are with the realities of Thailand in 2017.
As Giles pointed out in the introduction to the pamphlet that led to his exile, this tendency to focus exclusively on the “elite”, and the obscurantist mumbo-jumbo they use to titillate each other when they aren’t swanning it in a European resort, is “worthless”.
Except as clickbait of course.
And as is clear from comments on this site, it also draws a lot of fanboys from the “all Thais are stupid” crowd that tends to populate the local expat forums.
Congratulations?
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
“Gossip is a culturally-specific speech form”
With respect that is either nonsense or poorly-worded. Gossip is a human characteristic, the gossip mechanism is not specific to any culture.
It’s human nature.
Playing Malaysia’s number game
Hi Andrew,
On your claim that our I-O is imbalance, i dont get this, so far in both reference years (I-O 2005 and 2010) it has been “very much” balanced. I use I-O table for me master’s thesis (on ETPs tourism impact) and using it again as part of my SAM table in my phd’s thesis (need to update I-O now for 2014), and i found it all balance.
May I know which part of the I-O table is having imbalance?
Rights law the wrong move?
Well researched and well written article I found on Mandala pages for many months. Though I agree with the substances of race and religious law in general, I don’t agree with the fact that Ma Ba Tha led this movement since Ma Ba Tha is an organisation of Monks who don’t abide the Buddha’s vinaya or Law. Buddhist monks’ principle task is to realise their selfs and enlightened themselves, not to meddle in mundane affairs.
I always want to support this movement whole heartedly if it were led by laities’ organisation.
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
To alleviate some of the angst over gossip as an analytic category …
Gossip is a culturally-specific speech form that offers interesting if not necessary insights into Thai political dynamics for the reasons laid out in the article.
Which type of gossip will get you killed?
An important distinction, one might think.
What of the vicious gossip about his second and third wives set about by infuriated former in-laws of the crown prince, or Vajiralongkorn’s playing off same (releasing pornographic photos) to escape one mistress and move on to the next? What of gossip as deliberate misinformation set about by the power elite like the Pramoj brothers and the Democrats after King Ananda’s death?
If it influences the succession, it’s relevant.
With regard to the circumstances of Ananda’s death, the intent of the gossip (misinformation) disseminated by royalists and their police allies (funded by the United States and the CIA) was to destroy once and for all any chance of a comeback of democratic rival Pridi Phanomyong. It also functioned as a form of blackmail for the Mahidols.
What if the police focused on a different suspect?
The collateral damage was the lives of three innocent men — two hereditary palace retainers and a royal secretary involved in rice deals counter to royal interests. The execution of known innocents after a ridiculous show trial was a blemish on everyone who participated. The trials and consistent mangling of fact and interpretation exposed the Thai justice system for the farce that it is.
Making such a mockery of the justice system damaged Thailand’s reputation as a modern nation-state in the eyes of the international community. For select royals and their police and business associates, however, it was well worth the risk.
One apparent goal of this reverse dynamic — whereby X does something outrageous, insiders gossip (tell the truth) as a form of social control, and the junta retaliates via article 112 — is to totally extinguish — to make null and void (mokha) — the power and influence of former Prime Minister Thaksin, his followers and associates.
For farang commentators on NM, the word “gossip” is used to discredit journalists critical of the monarchy. By focusing on inessentials and female-related personal things — tattoos, improper dress, adultery and the like — it is implied, they are not real reporters.
In reporting gossip about royals — as opposed to manly man things like drug murders, arms deals, suspected insider trading on the stock market and the like — these men are like girls.
OMG!
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
It one is looking at evolving patterns of power in the interregnum, and the production of viable heirs is the major dynamic of a monarchy, not only are the connections between gender and power (and Swiss medical clinics which promise “rejuvenation” in its many aspects) worthy of consideration, but also the interplay between Article 112 and Article 44 of the interim constitution.
Because a society operates via different political and cultural dynamics does not mean that it’s backward or its people are stupid: that is the basis of colonial and post-colonial thought, which got Thailand into this position in the first place. Where would the Thai military, or the former king or crown prince, for that matter, be without 20th century American patronage in rooting out state enemies, real or imagined?
The king’s resurrecting medieval practices as a form of privilege, national identity and resistance is odd, but worthy of note.
Because the behavior of national leaders provides “clickbait” does not mean the content is irrelevant. Au contraire. The U.S. is looking pretty backwards now; both the ascension of Rama X and the rise of Donald Trump reveal very dark aspects of their respective societies.
Both leaders are similar in their despicable treatment of women and their approaches to power; each has pushed abuse of both to the limits of their respective societies.
Given their respective attacks on democratic institutions, secrets and the revelation of secrets is currently a driving force in both societies where quite robust attempts are being made to discredit and frighten the populace at large through the denial of basic civil rights and the violation of basic human rights.
Equally fascinating is the shifting composition of their inner circles, and the fate of their various members.
Suthida’s position is no more enviable than that of Melania Trump, the difference being, of course, that Suthida could end up disappeared, not just divorced and stripped of assets. Both have already been humiliated to the max. The interesting point is Suthida’s extraordinary military promotions as strategy. At some point, her position becomes dangerous, indeed. The ambiguity is what makes the move so powerful.
For both Donald Trump and King Maha Vajiralongkorn fidelity towards wealth and power far overrides any form of family loyalty; their children can be discarded as easily as their spouses. The relationship between “clickbait” and policy is frightening, indeed.
The attitudes of powerful and not-so-powerful men towards women as spouses, mistresses, daughters, heads of ministries, prime ministers or scholars says a lot. It’s information. Imagine political analysis with it and without it. One of the former is the norm.
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
This is an interesting question: Given the life history and personal predilections of Rama X, his near limitless wealth, and his control of the royal regalia (which, ahem, are assumed to have magical properties), how much can the palace PR machine do to promote his image? And what image would that be? He wants to be a military king. He grew up experiencing the realities, not the ideologies or fantasies, of the Ninth Reign. He is, in the manner of Rama V, systematically expanding his power and influence. The difference is, he’s old, not young. It’s a new global era.
One point of this article is that everyone is afraid, or nearly everyone. It’s worth noting the difference.
These are unique, nearly unimaginable, cultural and political dynamics.
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
Morgan – your very good analysis is marred by the way you look down on Thais. These are an incredibly brave people, when pushed to a point where they have to stand up. I saw this during May ’92’s uprising. I will never, for the rest of my life, forget and cease to respect the immense courage of those who refused to cower to brutal, terrifying force.
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
Ryan K – re. Bumiphol, I am struck by how all Thai communities I’ve seen in Australia STILL have adoring photos of the late King, and very many Thais STILL wearing black. I have n’t seen a single example of such adoration for the new king. Not one.