The Malaysia authorities would not resort to such clandestine operation. Proselyting to Muslims other than Islam is in fact outlaw. So rather than abducting him, the authorities could just do it the legal way. This article is ‘menghasut’.
Ha ha. I think TK Lim is NOT a Malaysian. Every Malaysian and his/her neighbour thinks that Jakim or proxies did it. Even BN supporters!
Only thinking & as the govt like to say – perception.
While there is no actual forensic evidence of JAKIM’S involvement in Pastor Koh’s disappearance, it is highly appropriate to reference JAKIM’S incitement of anti-Muslim racism, it’s Malay nationalistic rhetoric driven by UMNO, and it’s illegal activities in Dakwah Islamic proselytizing and persecution of Christian and Hindu religious activities. That does not make them guilty of this disappearance, but it does warrant suspicion. Lim is wrong that any “Malaysianist” won’t accuse JAKIM of foul play. Many non-Muslim Malaysians of faith have been harassed by JAKIM. That is sufficient to make some Malaysians doubtful of JAKIM’S integrity and tolerance.
Thailand’s military government has banned its citizens contacting or sharing social media posts from three outspoken critics living outside of the country.
Under the unprecedented move, online interaction with the critics has been deemed to be a violation of the country’s Computer/Cyber Crimes Act, which carries a prison sentence of up to 15 years on each count.
In a statement Thailand’s Ministry of Digital Economy and Society named Pavin Chachavalpongpun, an associate professor at the Centre for Southeast Asian Studies at Kyoto University, Somak Jeamteerasakul, who is living in exile in France and Scottish journalist and author Andrew MacGregor Marshall.
Joshua, thanks for your thoughtful responses. These have helped to clarify your thesis. I want to say first that I think the fraud accusations against Phra Dhammachayo are bogus. The Wat returned the cash and there was no reason for them to know it was embezzled (though the amount might have raised suspicions). Also, there was absolutely no justification for the junta’s actions. On the other hand I happen to know that DK does pay well for propaganda pieces published internationally, even providing sample articles so that the writer needn’t know anything about the subject. I also know people who have been on the deep inside of DK and there is much that would qualify as “dark past” or even “present”. Anyway, Mish Khan is an aspiring academic and I didn’t want her name wrongly attached to a piece of questionable academic merit (sorry), quite independently of the position advocated. I wouldn’t have commented otherwise. Here are my concerns with the article. BTW, I speak, read and write Thai fluently—I’m a professional translator—and have lived here, immersed in the culture, for many years.
Note: I use the Royal Institute Romanizations below.
“Phra” is not less respectful than “Luang Pho”. “Pho” means “father” and “Luang Pho” something like “Reverend Father”, its more familiar and affectionate than the usual and more formal title “Phra”, something like “Venerable” (there just aren’t literal translations for these).
“Full cooperation” seems to include “women, men, and monks who created a human shield… against the siege.” That some were injured does not transform their human shield into full cooperation. You’ve addressed this somewhat in comments by acknowledging that resistance began after the first three days, but anybody following this (in Thai and with friends on all sides of the issue) knows that DK has been obstructing these investigations for years. You may want to distinguish these protesters from DK itself… but that just doesn’t fly.
The devotees will not allow Phra Dhammachayo to turn himself in? Are they holding him prisoner? Is that why no one has seen him in months… he’s locked in a tiny cell by a tiny group of devotees? But if they are so devoted wouldn’t they “allow” him to talk to the police if he wanted to? All these years he’s simply been wanted for questioning and refused to show up, or even to be questioned at the Wat. Face? Reputation is very important in Thailand, yes, but refusing (or devotees not allowing) to be seen talking to police is far, far beyond the pale, far beyond Thai concern with face.
The Wat is indeed “controversial”, as is Phra D., that just means people are talking about it and suspicious of it, as indeed they are and have been for decades. I haven’t seen anything about a “dark past” in the international media (though much is rumored among Thais), just that there is suspicion and many questions.
It is true that a teacher commands high levels of devotion in Thai culture—but that is for a close personal teacher, not a distant figurehead as Phra D. is to most. I don’t pretend to understand what seems to be a fanatical, sometimes deeply disturbing, level of devotion—but it isn’t simply attachment to a personal guru.
Is DK affiliated with the redshirts? Reviewing old newspaper stories it appears that there was a rather close association with Thaksin when he was PM, and many Thais, both redshirt and anti believe that DK is a redshirt temple. That, however, doesn’t make sense to me given that a great many devotees are non or anti redshirt.
Nor do I know why the junta chose to stage this siege and invasion. Dr. J. Taylor and Dr. Pavin have each suggest reasons, none of which hold water. I’m sure it has to do with behind the scenes jockeying for power among the various elite factions, but specifically? impossible to read.
Dear NM, the more articles you publish by ‘scholar’ MB, the more your reputation is going down the drain. This article is nothing more than gossip. Accusing Jakim and the police of behind Koh’s disappearance without any real proof is really shameful for a site that claims to be a discussion board for scholars. I doubt any real Malaysianists will accuse Jakim/police of foul play where is no information all.
Jake – you have a heart-warming faith in the impartiality of Thailand’s Kafkaesque courts, and Thai law generally. How long have you lived in Thailand? Is it one day – or two?
Mr Prayuth is in the process of walking back some of his fascist actions, and I believe the ones concerning the Dammachayo are among them.
As a behaviourist, I was fascinated to watch the to the recent signing of the new constitution (not the one approved by an absolute minority of the Thai people, but an amended version never presented to the people). The looks on the face of the King when looking at Prayuth were priceless, and noticed by Prayuth himself, who responded with a face full of smugness and fear. He should be feeling fear too if what I surmise is happening is in fact happening.
Within days he had walked back several of his fascist actions and Prawit has deserted the world hub of medical tourism for an unspecified country for unspecified health reasons.
You couldn’t have more fun at the zoo, and it’s going to become really entertaining this year – before (what I believe will be) the non-coronation of the new head boy, whom I suspect will fall at what will be nearly the final hurdle, or whom will do a deal which does not include the military. Run rabbits run.
Steve. I will not apologize for my stance and for standing up for the good in the temple, and questioning the motives of the Thai junta. If my writing offended you and your sense of literacy, that is something a psychologist can assist with, as I am not a professional writer or psycho-analyst.
Mish Khan has been very kind and compassionate to consider my article. I am not getting paid for it, am not on the temple’s payroll, and live in America away from the situation. The only thing I am getting out of this is a sense of peace for writing what truth I know, and for supporting those people who have given me gifts of virtue and knowledge that help me to live a better life, be a better man, a better father, interact with others in a more compassionate manner, and work in the world in a much more harmonious way.
I took a great amount of my own time, outside of full time work and raising a newborn to muster up what courage and words I could to write this jumble of nonsense because there is a phenomenal amount of good that Wat Phra Dhammakaya and the Dhammakaya Foundation do in Thailand and internationally. All this good is not discussed in the English media. People easily want to throw them away as a cult and as corrupt or evil because of what they have read about in the media. I am very lucky to have met with Phra Dhammajayo and the Vice-Abbot Phra Dattajeevo personally. I have studied directly under them. These are men of abnormal amounts of virtue, honor, and integrity. I can say that because I have experienced it and why they do what they do. Can you? Have you met with them? Have you been to the temple, seen the projects and programs they have here? Do you know what they are really like and not what someone else tells you? If you have not and form a biased opinion without answering these questions, that would be a jumble of nonsense and hypocritical.
And goodness forbid there would ever be hypocrisy – or Irony – on the world wide web.
You have to be joking. The rich and avaricious in Thailand have been held high by the corrupt judiciary for decades. Expecting anything other than corruption from the court system is a forlorn hope.
Dammajayo is a target because he is not easily scared or controlled, and has been since day one of the treasonous coup détat launched by a few untalented military men and supported by 300,000 soldiers in Thailand who regard blind obedience higher than rational thought. But they are thais so that shouldn’t surprise anyone.
But the wheel is beginning to turn. Slowly, and laggardly, but then again, it is Thailand and everything happens slowly except theft and fraud – they happens quite quickly. And often.
Tuck. C’mon dude. You are straight up internet trolling right now.
If you really read what I said, especially in the comments, you’d know it’s not like that and see the emotional short-sightedness of your comment post.
There is foul play in all the organizations – including all religions – because there are foul people everywhere. But that doesn’t mean that Phra Dhammajayo is guilty or that the Thai government doesn’t have foul stinky sinister play going on.
It’s easy to judge from afar when a person hasn’t really experienced something for themselves.
I appreciate your schooling on what to use as justifications and to what not to use. It is true that stories are skewed by personal bias. And this goes the same for you and me right now.
Were you at the temple when all this was happening? Or have you just read it from the media? Judgements are easy to make from afar and when there is detachment.
I see what you mean about cooperation. To add further detail, it is true that the temple offered full cooperation for the first 3 days wherein the police searched the compounds. After 3 days of full cooperation, the temple followers – the rightful owners of the temple and not the monks – got involved because they felt there was foul play at hand. That’s when the confrontations started. So yes, there was definitely not cooperation at that time. Not just as an American but as a human, I respect the fact that they started to stand up against injustice, oppression, and wrong accusation.
I believe I made clear in this article is that this is a very sticky subject and everyone just wants to write of WPD (Wat Phra Dhammakaya) as evil and corrupt, because they read it from a corrupt and skewed media. Thatnis equally unfair.
If I was to tell you that many of the articles published in international media – khaosod, Bangkok post, etc. – use personal beliefs and story-telling to create a justification to degrade defame and wrongly accuse the temple, what would you say? Oh that’s not possible!?! C’mon. Regimes protect their interests. Europeans will remember the Nazi Germany propaganda quote of, “the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it.”
Neither the Thai government nor WPD are perfect. If anyone was to take a good hard look at all the good things the WPD temple and foundation do around the country and internationally, you would be singing a different tune.
It’s just about getting at the right information. I don’t have it all. But I will stand up for WPD (accepting it’s faults too) because no one in the international community is. You have to have been there, speak the language, met with the masters there and talked to them to understand their side.
“Restriction on the Dhammakaya temple is revoked,” Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha told reporters.
Phra Dhammachayo helped found the temple and remains influential. Aides said they have not seen him for months and that he is too sick for questioning.
All these observations on the Thai monarchy are way beyond me, but I rather doubt whether Chomsky’s theories on syntax offer a route to greater understanding of the issues.
You can study move alpha or argue for the maximal projection of NP till the cows come home, but you won’t find the truth in regard to whether V skydived with a naked hussie (For a good introduction to minimalist syntax could I in passing, recommend the recent texts by Radford?).
It expresses very beautfully something I feel about what the junta is doing in Bangkok to satisfy the urban bourgeoise, both native and expat.
There is a sense that these moves toward more “legality and efficiency” are an inevitable concommitant of modernization, but there is no doubt that the vulnerable are taking the hit.
Surely the disappearance of orange bajaj is only a matter of time? Air and sound pollution, safety issues, as the article mentioned, are the contributing factors. They will be remembered fondly. Although, there must be a better way to handle the loss of jobs.
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Who’s behind Pastor Koh’s disappearance?
The Malaysia authorities would not resort to such clandestine operation. Proselyting to Muslims other than Islam is in fact outlaw. So rather than abducting him, the authorities could just do it the legal way. This article is ‘menghasut’.
Who’s behind Pastor Koh’s disappearance?
Ha ha. I think TK Lim is NOT a Malaysian. Every Malaysian and his/her neighbour thinks that Jakim or proxies did it. Even BN supporters!
Only thinking & as the govt like to say – perception.
Who’s behind Pastor Koh’s disappearance?
“Its” and not “It’s”………….
Who’s behind Pastor Koh’s disappearance?
While there is no actual forensic evidence of JAKIM’S involvement in Pastor Koh’s disappearance, it is highly appropriate to reference JAKIM’S incitement of anti-Muslim racism, it’s Malay nationalistic rhetoric driven by UMNO, and it’s illegal activities in Dakwah Islamic proselytizing and persecution of Christian and Hindu religious activities. That does not make them guilty of this disappearance, but it does warrant suspicion. Lim is wrong that any “Malaysianist” won’t accuse JAKIM of foul play. Many non-Muslim Malaysians of faith have been harassed by JAKIM. That is sufficient to make some Malaysians doubtful of JAKIM’S integrity and tolerance.
The irony of integrity
The Dictator ain’t walking nothing back …
Thailand’s military government has banned its citizens contacting or sharing social media posts from three outspoken critics living outside of the country.
http://www.watoday.com.au/world/thailand-instructs-citizens-to-stop-following-three-critics-online-20170413-gvk4lt.html
Under the unprecedented move, online interaction with the critics has been deemed to be a violation of the country’s Computer/Cyber Crimes Act, which carries a prison sentence of up to 15 years on each count.
In a statement Thailand’s Ministry of Digital Economy and Society named Pavin Chachavalpongpun, an associate professor at the Centre for Southeast Asian Studies at Kyoto University, Somak Jeamteerasakul, who is living in exile in France and Scottish journalist and author Andrew MacGregor Marshall.
The irony of integrity
Joshua, thanks for your thoughtful responses. These have helped to clarify your thesis. I want to say first that I think the fraud accusations against Phra Dhammachayo are bogus. The Wat returned the cash and there was no reason for them to know it was embezzled (though the amount might have raised suspicions). Also, there was absolutely no justification for the junta’s actions. On the other hand I happen to know that DK does pay well for propaganda pieces published internationally, even providing sample articles so that the writer needn’t know anything about the subject. I also know people who have been on the deep inside of DK and there is much that would qualify as “dark past” or even “present”. Anyway, Mish Khan is an aspiring academic and I didn’t want her name wrongly attached to a piece of questionable academic merit (sorry), quite independently of the position advocated. I wouldn’t have commented otherwise. Here are my concerns with the article. BTW, I speak, read and write Thai fluently—I’m a professional translator—and have lived here, immersed in the culture, for many years.
Note: I use the Royal Institute Romanizations below.
“Phra” is not less respectful than “Luang Pho”. “Pho” means “father” and “Luang Pho” something like “Reverend Father”, its more familiar and affectionate than the usual and more formal title “Phra”, something like “Venerable” (there just aren’t literal translations for these).
“Full cooperation” seems to include “women, men, and monks who created a human shield… against the siege.” That some were injured does not transform their human shield into full cooperation. You’ve addressed this somewhat in comments by acknowledging that resistance began after the first three days, but anybody following this (in Thai and with friends on all sides of the issue) knows that DK has been obstructing these investigations for years. You may want to distinguish these protesters from DK itself… but that just doesn’t fly.
The devotees will not allow Phra Dhammachayo to turn himself in? Are they holding him prisoner? Is that why no one has seen him in months… he’s locked in a tiny cell by a tiny group of devotees? But if they are so devoted wouldn’t they “allow” him to talk to the police if he wanted to? All these years he’s simply been wanted for questioning and refused to show up, or even to be questioned at the Wat. Face? Reputation is very important in Thailand, yes, but refusing (or devotees not allowing) to be seen talking to police is far, far beyond the pale, far beyond Thai concern with face.
The Wat is indeed “controversial”, as is Phra D., that just means people are talking about it and suspicious of it, as indeed they are and have been for decades. I haven’t seen anything about a “dark past” in the international media (though much is rumored among Thais), just that there is suspicion and many questions.
It is true that a teacher commands high levels of devotion in Thai culture—but that is for a close personal teacher, not a distant figurehead as Phra D. is to most. I don’t pretend to understand what seems to be a fanatical, sometimes deeply disturbing, level of devotion—but it isn’t simply attachment to a personal guru.
Is DK affiliated with the redshirts? Reviewing old newspaper stories it appears that there was a rather close association with Thaksin when he was PM, and many Thais, both redshirt and anti believe that DK is a redshirt temple. That, however, doesn’t make sense to me given that a great many devotees are non or anti redshirt.
Nor do I know why the junta chose to stage this siege and invasion. Dr. J. Taylor and Dr. Pavin have each suggest reasons, none of which hold water. I’m sure it has to do with behind the scenes jockeying for power among the various elite factions, but specifically? impossible to read.
Who’s behind Pastor Koh’s disappearance?
Dear NM, the more articles you publish by ‘scholar’ MB, the more your reputation is going down the drain. This article is nothing more than gossip. Accusing Jakim and the police of behind Koh’s disappearance without any real proof is really shameful for a site that claims to be a discussion board for scholars. I doubt any real Malaysianists will accuse Jakim/police of foul play where is no information all.
The irony of integrity
Jake – you have a heart-warming faith in the impartiality of Thailand’s Kafkaesque courts, and Thai law generally. How long have you lived in Thailand? Is it one day – or two?
The irony of integrity
Mr Prayuth is in the process of walking back some of his fascist actions, and I believe the ones concerning the Dammachayo are among them.
As a behaviourist, I was fascinated to watch the to the recent signing of the new constitution (not the one approved by an absolute minority of the Thai people, but an amended version never presented to the people). The looks on the face of the King when looking at Prayuth were priceless, and noticed by Prayuth himself, who responded with a face full of smugness and fear. He should be feeling fear too if what I surmise is happening is in fact happening.
Within days he had walked back several of his fascist actions and Prawit has deserted the world hub of medical tourism for an unspecified country for unspecified health reasons.
You couldn’t have more fun at the zoo, and it’s going to become really entertaining this year – before (what I believe will be) the non-coronation of the new head boy, whom I suspect will fall at what will be nearly the final hurdle, or whom will do a deal which does not include the military. Run rabbits run.
The irony of integrity
Steve. I will not apologize for my stance and for standing up for the good in the temple, and questioning the motives of the Thai junta. If my writing offended you and your sense of literacy, that is something a psychologist can assist with, as I am not a professional writer or psycho-analyst.
Mish Khan has been very kind and compassionate to consider my article. I am not getting paid for it, am not on the temple’s payroll, and live in America away from the situation. The only thing I am getting out of this is a sense of peace for writing what truth I know, and for supporting those people who have given me gifts of virtue and knowledge that help me to live a better life, be a better man, a better father, interact with others in a more compassionate manner, and work in the world in a much more harmonious way.
I took a great amount of my own time, outside of full time work and raising a newborn to muster up what courage and words I could to write this jumble of nonsense because there is a phenomenal amount of good that Wat Phra Dhammakaya and the Dhammakaya Foundation do in Thailand and internationally. All this good is not discussed in the English media. People easily want to throw them away as a cult and as corrupt or evil because of what they have read about in the media. I am very lucky to have met with Phra Dhammajayo and the Vice-Abbot Phra Dattajeevo personally. I have studied directly under them. These are men of abnormal amounts of virtue, honor, and integrity. I can say that because I have experienced it and why they do what they do. Can you? Have you met with them? Have you been to the temple, seen the projects and programs they have here? Do you know what they are really like and not what someone else tells you? If you have not and form a biased opinion without answering these questions, that would be a jumble of nonsense and hypocritical.
And goodness forbid there would ever be hypocrisy – or Irony – on the world wide web.
The irony of integrity
“That has to be for the courts to decide.””
You have to be joking. The rich and avaricious in Thailand have been held high by the corrupt judiciary for decades. Expecting anything other than corruption from the court system is a forlorn hope.
Dammajayo is a target because he is not easily scared or controlled, and has been since day one of the treasonous coup détat launched by a few untalented military men and supported by 300,000 soldiers in Thailand who regard blind obedience higher than rational thought. But they are thais so that shouldn’t surprise anyone.
But the wheel is beginning to turn. Slowly, and laggardly, but then again, it is Thailand and everything happens slowly except theft and fraud – they happens quite quickly. And often.
The irony of integrity
Jake. All good points. What questions do you feel require answers to?
The irony of integrity
Tuck. C’mon dude. You are straight up internet trolling right now.
If you really read what I said, especially in the comments, you’d know it’s not like that and see the emotional short-sightedness of your comment post.
There is foul play in all the organizations – including all religions – because there are foul people everywhere. But that doesn’t mean that Phra Dhammajayo is guilty or that the Thai government doesn’t have foul stinky sinister play going on.
It’s easy to judge from afar when a person hasn’t really experienced something for themselves.
The irony of integrity
Hey falang,
I appreciate your schooling on what to use as justifications and to what not to use. It is true that stories are skewed by personal bias. And this goes the same for you and me right now.
Were you at the temple when all this was happening? Or have you just read it from the media? Judgements are easy to make from afar and when there is detachment.
I see what you mean about cooperation. To add further detail, it is true that the temple offered full cooperation for the first 3 days wherein the police searched the compounds. After 3 days of full cooperation, the temple followers – the rightful owners of the temple and not the monks – got involved because they felt there was foul play at hand. That’s when the confrontations started. So yes, there was definitely not cooperation at that time. Not just as an American but as a human, I respect the fact that they started to stand up against injustice, oppression, and wrong accusation.
I believe I made clear in this article is that this is a very sticky subject and everyone just wants to write of WPD (Wat Phra Dhammakaya) as evil and corrupt, because they read it from a corrupt and skewed media. Thatnis equally unfair.
If I was to tell you that many of the articles published in international media – khaosod, Bangkok post, etc. – use personal beliefs and story-telling to create a justification to degrade defame and wrongly accuse the temple, what would you say? Oh that’s not possible!?! C’mon. Regimes protect their interests. Europeans will remember the Nazi Germany propaganda quote of, “the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it.”
Neither the Thai government nor WPD are perfect. If anyone was to take a good hard look at all the good things the WPD temple and foundation do around the country and internationally, you would be singing a different tune.
It’s just about getting at the right information. I don’t have it all. But I will stand up for WPD (accepting it’s faults too) because no one in the international community is. You have to have been there, speak the language, met with the masters there and talked to them to understand their side.
The irony of integrity
Thai junta lifts control on Buddist temple
“Restriction on the Dhammakaya temple is revoked,” Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha told reporters.
Phra Dhammachayo helped found the temple and remains influential. Aides said they have not seen him for months and that he is too sick for questioning.
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/world-news/2017/04/12/thai-junta-lifts-control-on-buddist-temple
Begs the question , if they haven’t seen him for months how do they know he is too sick for questioning ?
Risk, gossip and retribution in Thailand
All these observations on the Thai monarchy are way beyond me, but I rather doubt whether Chomsky’s theories on syntax offer a route to greater understanding of the issues.
You can study move alpha or argue for the maximal projection of NP till the cows come home, but you won’t find the truth in regard to whether V skydived with a naked hussie (For a good introduction to minimalist syntax could I in passing, recommend the recent texts by Radford?).
R.I.P orange bajaj
Thanks for this excellent piece!
It expresses very beautfully something I feel about what the junta is doing in Bangkok to satisfy the urban bourgeoise, both native and expat.
There is a sense that these moves toward more “legality and efficiency” are an inevitable concommitant of modernization, but there is no doubt that the vulnerable are taking the hit.
R.I.P orange bajaj
Surely the disappearance of orange bajaj is only a matter of time? Air and sound pollution, safety issues, as the article mentioned, are the contributing factors. They will be remembered fondly. Although, there must be a better way to handle the loss of jobs.
R.I.P orange bajaj
A great read, Ray. And superb pictures, as always.
The irony of integrity
Thank-you for the time to pen a detailed reply , unexpected and appreciated .
It is unfair to claim ‘full cooperation from Wat Phra Dhammakaya’ when the article I referenced plainly demonstrates this is not the case .
you then offer your personal beliefs as justification as to why the pictures are not what they are .
you are entitle to your personal beliefs as is anyone , you are not entitled to use said beliefs justification of a mistruth .
the point remains that there was not full cooperation .