This author’s acute observation that most of the participants in the anti-Ahok rallies came from the lower or middles classes is reassuring. I, for one, was alarmed that some upper-class Indonesians, the Sultan of Jogjakarta or Ibu Ani, for example, might also be tempted to attend such mass events, thereby destroying any hope at all for pluralism in the country.
The author seems to have added to what was already an impressively broad range of research interests, honed no doubt at Tanjungpura, one of Pontianak’s top campuses, the capacity to achieve sharp insight into the motivations of thousands of demonstrators. This is a rare skill. Ortega y Gasset, author of The Revolt of the Masses, lacked this ability.
Could Dr Duile be persuaded to share with us, as a matter of sociological methodology, how many demonstrators have to be interviewed before one can deduce that ‘most’ are concerned merely with expressing their emotions? This is a fairly base motive, to be sure, one that amply justifies the label ‘reactionary’ for those demonstrators found guilty of this moral inadequacy. Did he get to speak to, say, 50% of them before reaching this judgement?
Most of the Malay people I have known were engineering students, not septuagenarian historians with a kink.
On one occasion in a class when a young woman told me she was from Narathiwat one of the wits asked me if I were “scary”, thereby introducing the topic of the southern insurgency that I had longed to broach but worried that it would be impolite.
Subsequent chat revealed that all three(!) of the southerners in the class identified as Thai, the people around them saw them as Thai, but had a tendency to make jokes about the way they spoke (and bombs).
We have a local shopkeeper who is Bangkok Malay and of course considers herself Thai and a woman running a kanom jin street stall in Krabi laughed when I asked her in my shitty Thai if she were Thai first or Muslim. So I don’t know.
I should probably add that I have gotten away with asking this question of Thais, mainly university-aged but not all, for many years. No one has ever told me they identified as khon Isan or any other regional/provincial identity before they consider themselves Thai.
I was once given an anger-fueled history lesson concerning a Mon woman’s grandmother being punished for speaking Mon in grade school and other indignities forced on “her people”. She also identified as Thai.
When I used to use provocative questions with Korean students to further my casual research and attempt to provide motivation for communication, I often met with a tempered hostility that was usually possible to get past.
That only happened one time with Thai students. A young Muslim woman from the south in another class got visibly angry and pulled out her Thai ID card and slapped it onto her desk when I asked my question.
As things go in Thai student society, a group of her friends came to my office later and explained that she had had a farang teacher in a school in Bangkok who was always trying to get her to recognize that she was not really Thai, that she should be proud to be… blah-blah-blah liberal identitarian totalizing nonsense.
I assured them that I had no such intention myself, they assured me they knew that and a few days later the girl herself came to my office with one friend to ask about an assignment and no mention was made of the incident but clearly we were OK.
It’s silly to say this is a problem of the Cambodian young people. On a personal level most Khmer youth get along well with Vietnamese. Their dislike is political, based on; continued and ongoing border incursions by Vietnam that have not been effectively opposed by the Hun Sen government (which is seen by some to favour Vietnam and people of Vietnamese descent in government appointments) and Illegal migration by Vietnamese into Cambodia. Should these issues be addressed the attitudes of Cambodian youth towards Vietnam would rapidly improve. All this is fuelled by the fact that the Hun Sen administration was installed by Vietnam in 1979 and leads to suspicions of favouritism. The responses to Thai border incursions have been met with military responses by the CPP, but not the Vietnamese incursions. Notably, Khmer youth get along well with Thai’s despite the recent military actions over disputed borders.
Trying to establish Shariah law THROUGHOUT Indonesia, will lead to the break-up of Indonesia. There’s no way Indonesia’s eastern, Christian – or even abangan – provinces would accept it. Ditto most of Indonesia’s military, I would suspect.
Great linguistic education going on here. I’m really glad you are aware of the roots of the Thai language in Pali and Sanskrit.
Indeed, the reference for the degradation of Phra Dhammajayo’s titles came from the stripping of his most recently honorary title of พระเทพญาณมหามุนี Phrathepyanmahamuni to the blunt and less respectful, พระ Phra Dhammajayo. I’m glad you caught onto that. Describing it in the article was too long and boring for most people.
Btw, by criticising any decision of the current King of Thailand (whom authorized the stripping of Phra Dhammajayo’s Honorary Royal Titles) it is a breach of the lèse majesté and computer crimes act. FYI.
In regards to our discussion of ครู “Khruu” and it’s etymology, I still disagree with your statement that the tradition of reverence for teachers has nothing to do with the extreme devotion some Thais develop for “distant” or dead religious leaders. That’s just simply not true. And from living in Thailand for over 9 years, traveling the countryside and speaking with Thais in their language, I just know that’s not true. Just like you can’t tell me that ปลาร้า isn’t fishy. I respect your diligence in articulating your point. I do. Besides the fact that Pali and Sanskrit scholars mock Thais for more or less butchering pronunciation of hose languages, there is a reason the scholars of the old kingdoms chose those words; including อาจารย์ “Ācārya”. Because there was no separation of church and state, and it was to remind the student that these are knowledges (math, science, art, etc. not just spiritual sciences and arts) that we use to make a living, support our family, contribute to society. Though there is a glossing over of this in the current society of Thailand, it doesn’t mean there is no connection. And since the Dhammakaya Foundation started the V-Star (“Star of Virtue”) program – which was so successful it went into the public school system of Thailand – it reminded both the student and the teachers of the importance of honoring that connection with respect and depth.
อาจารย์ “Achan/Acharn/Ajarn” is indeed used as a more respectful title, just as in Sanskrit cultures. The most common form of respect for these teachers is used in the ไหว้ “Wai”, used in everyday Thai life and tourism. It is held as a symbol of offering a lotus flower to that person for the expertise they possess, the gratitude the receiver has for that person imparting knowledge to them, and as a gesture of respect for the relationship they have.
I also respectfully disagree with your comment that “in other words the Sanskrit or Pali originals of loan words tell us nothing obvious about current or ancient Thai meanings”. That’s also just not true. That’s like saying French Italian or Spanish loan words from Latin cannot tell us anything about their meaning.
Thailand has been a practicing Buddhist – given its own form and amalgamation of Buddhism – since pre-Lanna period. Which is what, the 1200’s? The practice and culture of BuddhaDharma, or teachings of Lord Buddha, was intentionally put into the Thai language; much as the Tibetan language was with Sanskrit and Vajrayāna or Tantric Buddhism. These are facts.
Yes, ธรรม”Tham” comes from the Sanskrit word Dharma. It is used as you have described, and can take on many definitions. But really, in terms of its application from Buddhist teachings, it means “nature”. And this is highlighted in the Thai word for nature ธรรมชาติ. Since Buddha taught the way to understanding the “truth” of one’s own existential nature and the reality/nature ธรรม of the universe, it is labeled and referred to as “the teachings of Lord Buddha” in Thai Buddhist culture. From that base point, it makes sense as to why these use it in other ordinary ways, e.g. justice, fairness, virtue (though the more complete word for virtue is คุณ). Once we understand our nature, we understand the undeniable and unavoidable ‘truth’. Hence why I opted for “truth”, imperfect as it is because it necessitates all this background information to fully understand the various applications of the word ธรรม. Same goes for words like สังขาร and เวทนา. The only way to see how they are connected is through being a practitioner of BuddhaDharma.
It is also helpful in knowing when to stop beating a dead horse. Happy trails and trials on the linguistic journey.
The very notion that “Islamism” could be considered reactionary in Indonesia deserves a little interrogation.
To call these groups “reactionary” is to suggest that like ol’ William Buckley they are standing athwart History and yelling “Stop!” when in fact it appears that they are actually intent on radical change in the structures of Indonesian governance. And that sounds resolutely modernist and even revolutionary to me.
I wonder if the author would care to share how he came to identify a “reactionary anti-capitalism” in a former colony of Holland.
Labelling capitalism, especially its manifestation in finance and especially banking, as an enemy of the people may seem reactionary to someone who assumes neoliberal quasi-colonialism to be some sort of progressive adjunct to the advance of universal liberalism but many on the left pretty much anywhere in the real world would likely find cause to differ.
And finally, has Indonesia qua Indonesia ever actually been a “unitary state based on Islamic law” for “reactionaries” to hearken back to as an idealized past to which it would be heavenly to return?
Or are we back in Jim Taylor territory with “reactionary” being used to mean “really really bad” the way “fascism” so sadly often is?
Just because various segments of a country’s citizenry are able to speak a different language, as well as the main language of the country in which they are citizens; doesn’t mean they are citizens of the country of the second language. It’s the difference between ethnicity and citizenship.
There are Thais all over the world who speak Thai but are citizens of the country in which they reside. There are also Malaysians who have moved to other countries and are citizens of the country they’ve relocated to; they taken up citizenship of the country that they reside in. How about Syrian refugees who have settled in a 3rd countries, should they also be allowed to live their lives under Sharia law or according to the laws of the country they reside in. I’m sure Thais, Chinese, Jews, Muslims, Germans and etc who have relocated to other countries speak their own languages, but must still follow the laws of the countries that they reside in.
I beg to differ. Firstly, to ascribe ethnicity is correct that the a Southern Thais are ethnically Malay in origin. But so to are Chinese Thais who are ethnically Chinese in origin. They also speak many Chinese dialects. And so to are Thailand’s hill tribes who are spread out over Burma, Thailand, and Laos who have their own ethnicity and culture.
Back to so-called Malay Thais; while they originated and are descended from Malays, their nationality and citizenship is Thai not Malaysian. The majority of Thai Muslims consider themselves as being Thai, as many generations have been born and raised in Thailand these past 100+ years. If the minority of Thai Muslims wish to take up Malay citizenship, it’s up to them to do so according to the laws of Malaysia. What do you consider those Chinese Malays, although ethnically Chinese and speak eg. Hokkien; are they Chinese or are they Chinese Malay?
I beg to differ. Firstly, to ascribe ethnicity is correct that the a Southern Thais are ethnically Malay in origin. But so to are Chinese Thais who are ethnically Chinese in origin. They also speak many Chinese dialects. And so to are Thailand’s hill tribes who are spread out over Burma, Thailand, and Laos who have their own ethnicity and culture.
Back to so-called Malay Thais; while they originated and are descended from Malays, their nationality and citizenship is Thai not Malaysian. The majority of Thai Muslims consider themselves as being Thai, as many generations have been born and raised in Thailand these past 100+ years. If the minority of Thai Muslims wish to take up Malay citizenship, it’s up to them to do so according to the laws of Malaysia. What do you consider those Chinese Malays, although ethnically Chinese and speak eg. Hokkien; are they Chinese are they Chinese Malay?
Is there any any branch of Islam, or religion in general that isn’t reactionary? I would suggest not.
It may be the case that the particular brand of sky-God’ery mentioned in the article is MORE reactionary than others, but that l would opinion is fairly trivial when compared to the damage that religion as a whole has inflicted on Indonesia and elsewhere.
It’s possible that notdissapointed simply wanted to suggest that nationality counts for something and that the constant harping on race/ethnicity is not the only way of identifying people.
I know Thais from the south who are both Malay and Muslim. It doesn’t stop them from being Thai. And they have no problem being referred to as Thai. It is, after all, what they are.
Given Joseph’s discussion of Thai terms, I feel I should offer some observations on same:
The Thai khru ครู is indeed from Sanskrit guru. A great many Thai words are derived from Sanskrit, and not quite so many from Pali. The meanings are often quite profoundly altered. The Thai “khru” is used for elementary and high school teachers, อาจารย์, “achan”, from skt “acariya” is used for university professors, but also for highly educated persons whether they teach or not. The combination ครูบาอาจารย์, “khrubachan”, mentioned by Joseph is perhaps close to what English speakers think of as “guru”. None of this, including the tradition of reverence for teachers, has anything to do with the extreme devotion some Thais develop for distant (often dead) religious leaders.
Other examples of Thai words derived from Sanskrit and Pali:
Upasak อุปสรรค is from Sanskrit “upasarga”. The Thai means obstacle; the Sanskrit means trouble, misfortune.
Wethana เวทนา is from Sanskrit/Pali “vedana”. The Thai means to feel sorry for, to pity; the Sanskrit means feeling, sensation, knowledge, perception and a host of other meanings, none of which have anything to do with feeling sorry for.
Sankhan, สังขาร, is from Pali “sankhara”. The Thai means the physical body, the Pali means compounded or conditioned.
Etc. etc. etc.
In other words the Sanskrit or Pali origionals of loan words tell us nothing obvious about current (or ancient) Thai meanings. BTW, ธรรม, “tham”, from Skt “dharma,” but pronounced more like the Pali “Dhamma” does not mean “truth”. In ordinary Thai it means “justice” or “fairness”, in context, it means “virtue”, “the teachings of the Buddha” plus the wide range of meanings from Buddhist doctrine.
On Luang, หลวง: Any older monk can be called Luang Pho, Luang Pu or Luang Ta—Luang Father, Luang Paternal Grandfather, Luang Maternal Grandfather respectively. Even I was called Luang Pho during my stint as a monk (I put a quick stop to that as I was only 50). There is also Luang Phi, Luang Older Brother. So what does “luang” mean? If I had more than one wife, my first wife would be mialuang, i.e. my Luang Wife; when I get on the highway, I’m driving on the thang luang, i.e. the luang way. The monks called Luang Pho/Pu/Ta in the press are those who have gained virtually universal reverence and devotion, usually after they’ve died. Such terms gives a sense of progenitor/protector. Thus it’s perfectly natural for DK devotees to refer to Phra D. (and any other older DK monk) as Luang Pho etc., but he doesn’t have the near universal devotion to merit that title in the press. OTOH, the press might have shown more respect by using his royal titles, most recently “Phrathepyanmahamuni” (just recently, unjustly, stripped).
R.N. England, you are correct. With the prevalent anti-Vietnamese sentiment, the future of Cambodia seems to be less promising. Both countries have to find ways to settle the issue and live in brotherhood and neighborhood. Although it appears impossible in the immediate future, as mentioned in the article, youth have crucial roles to play. It all starts from youth and the younger generations of both nations.
Thanks for the reply. I appologize for the harshness of my original post. Really I was just concerned with attribution. I have no problem with your contribution being published and don’t expect all contributors to be academics. As you said in Thai, issues surrounding the DK are complex, but I think it’s been tossed about enough in this thread. I’ll only say this: I can validly give informed criticism of DK and Phra D. without joining the one and knowing the other personally just as I can criticize the junta and General P. without being personally involved.
Nope. One has nothing to do with the other & I don’t see how you made the connection. I think I agree with Joshua that DK isn’t a redshirt temple–but the claim that it is isn’t a “conspiracy”, or even a conspiracy theory, it’s a fairly common, but far from universal, opinion that’s been around for years. But there is much that is murky about both the DK and the junta’s actions.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Reactionary Islamism in Indonesia
This author’s acute observation that most of the participants in the anti-Ahok rallies came from the lower or middles classes is reassuring. I, for one, was alarmed that some upper-class Indonesians, the Sultan of Jogjakarta or Ibu Ani, for example, might also be tempted to attend such mass events, thereby destroying any hope at all for pluralism in the country.
The author seems to have added to what was already an impressively broad range of research interests, honed no doubt at Tanjungpura, one of Pontianak’s top campuses, the capacity to achieve sharp insight into the motivations of thousands of demonstrators. This is a rare skill. Ortega y Gasset, author of The Revolt of the Masses, lacked this ability.
Could Dr Duile be persuaded to share with us, as a matter of sociological methodology, how many demonstrators have to be interviewed before one can deduce that ‘most’ are concerned merely with expressing their emotions? This is a fairly base motive, to be sure, one that amply justifies the label ‘reactionary’ for those demonstrators found guilty of this moral inadequacy. Did he get to speak to, say, 50% of them before reaching this judgement?
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
Thai, Chris. Thai.
Most of the Malay people I have known were engineering students, not septuagenarian historians with a kink.
On one occasion in a class when a young woman told me she was from Narathiwat one of the wits asked me if I were “scary”, thereby introducing the topic of the southern insurgency that I had longed to broach but worried that it would be impolite.
Subsequent chat revealed that all three(!) of the southerners in the class identified as Thai, the people around them saw them as Thai, but had a tendency to make jokes about the way they spoke (and bombs).
We have a local shopkeeper who is Bangkok Malay and of course considers herself Thai and a woman running a kanom jin street stall in Krabi laughed when I asked her in my shitty Thai if she were Thai first or Muslim. So I don’t know.
I should probably add that I have gotten away with asking this question of Thais, mainly university-aged but not all, for many years. No one has ever told me they identified as khon Isan or any other regional/provincial identity before they consider themselves Thai.
I was once given an anger-fueled history lesson concerning a Mon woman’s grandmother being punished for speaking Mon in grade school and other indignities forced on “her people”. She also identified as Thai.
When I used to use provocative questions with Korean students to further my casual research and attempt to provide motivation for communication, I often met with a tempered hostility that was usually possible to get past.
That only happened one time with Thai students. A young Muslim woman from the south in another class got visibly angry and pulled out her Thai ID card and slapped it onto her desk when I asked my question.
As things go in Thai student society, a group of her friends came to my office later and explained that she had had a farang teacher in a school in Bangkok who was always trying to get her to recognize that she was not really Thai, that she should be proud to be… blah-blah-blah liberal identitarian totalizing nonsense.
I assured them that I had no such intention myself, they assured me they knew that and a few days later the girl herself came to my office with one friend to ask about an assignment and no mention was made of the incident but clearly we were OK.
Cambodian youth: shaping relations with Vietnam
It’s silly to say this is a problem of the Cambodian young people. On a personal level most Khmer youth get along well with Vietnamese. Their dislike is political, based on; continued and ongoing border incursions by Vietnam that have not been effectively opposed by the Hun Sen government (which is seen by some to favour Vietnam and people of Vietnamese descent in government appointments) and Illegal migration by Vietnamese into Cambodia. Should these issues be addressed the attitudes of Cambodian youth towards Vietnam would rapidly improve. All this is fuelled by the fact that the Hun Sen administration was installed by Vietnam in 1979 and leads to suspicions of favouritism. The responses to Thai border incursions have been met with military responses by the CPP, but not the Vietnamese incursions. Notably, Khmer youth get along well with Thai’s despite the recent military actions over disputed borders.
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
Michael Wilson – do your “Thai” Malays count themselves as “Thai”, or Siamese ? Patani was originally forcibly incorporated into Siam, not “Thailand”.
Reactionary Islamism in Indonesia
Trying to establish Shariah law THROUGHOUT Indonesia, will lead to the break-up of Indonesia. There’s no way Indonesia’s eastern, Christian – or even abangan – provinces would accept it. Ditto most of Indonesia’s military, I would suspect.
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
What is the evidence that international islamist jihad groups have an influence among the insurgency in the four provinces?
The irony of integrity
Scott (Steve),
Great linguistic education going on here. I’m really glad you are aware of the roots of the Thai language in Pali and Sanskrit.
Indeed, the reference for the degradation of Phra Dhammajayo’s titles came from the stripping of his most recently honorary title of พระเทพญาณมหามุนี Phrathepyanmahamuni to the blunt and less respectful, พระ Phra Dhammajayo. I’m glad you caught onto that. Describing it in the article was too long and boring for most people.
Btw, by criticising any decision of the current King of Thailand (whom authorized the stripping of Phra Dhammajayo’s Honorary Royal Titles) it is a breach of the lèse majesté and computer crimes act. FYI.
In regards to our discussion of ครู “Khruu” and it’s etymology, I still disagree with your statement that the tradition of reverence for teachers has nothing to do with the extreme devotion some Thais develop for “distant” or dead religious leaders. That’s just simply not true. And from living in Thailand for over 9 years, traveling the countryside and speaking with Thais in their language, I just know that’s not true. Just like you can’t tell me that ปลาร้า isn’t fishy. I respect your diligence in articulating your point. I do. Besides the fact that Pali and Sanskrit scholars mock Thais for more or less butchering pronunciation of hose languages, there is a reason the scholars of the old kingdoms chose those words; including อาจารย์ “Ācārya”. Because there was no separation of church and state, and it was to remind the student that these are knowledges (math, science, art, etc. not just spiritual sciences and arts) that we use to make a living, support our family, contribute to society. Though there is a glossing over of this in the current society of Thailand, it doesn’t mean there is no connection. And since the Dhammakaya Foundation started the V-Star (“Star of Virtue”) program – which was so successful it went into the public school system of Thailand – it reminded both the student and the teachers of the importance of honoring that connection with respect and depth.
อาจารย์ “Achan/Acharn/Ajarn” is indeed used as a more respectful title, just as in Sanskrit cultures. The most common form of respect for these teachers is used in the ไหว้ “Wai”, used in everyday Thai life and tourism. It is held as a symbol of offering a lotus flower to that person for the expertise they possess, the gratitude the receiver has for that person imparting knowledge to them, and as a gesture of respect for the relationship they have.
I also respectfully disagree with your comment that “in other words the Sanskrit or Pali originals of loan words tell us nothing obvious about current or ancient Thai meanings”. That’s also just not true. That’s like saying French Italian or Spanish loan words from Latin cannot tell us anything about their meaning.
Thailand has been a practicing Buddhist – given its own form and amalgamation of Buddhism – since pre-Lanna period. Which is what, the 1200’s? The practice and culture of BuddhaDharma, or teachings of Lord Buddha, was intentionally put into the Thai language; much as the Tibetan language was with Sanskrit and Vajrayāna or Tantric Buddhism. These are facts.
Yes, ธรรม”Tham” comes from the Sanskrit word Dharma. It is used as you have described, and can take on many definitions. But really, in terms of its application from Buddhist teachings, it means “nature”. And this is highlighted in the Thai word for nature ธรรมชาติ. Since Buddha taught the way to understanding the “truth” of one’s own existential nature and the reality/nature ธรรม of the universe, it is labeled and referred to as “the teachings of Lord Buddha” in Thai Buddhist culture. From that base point, it makes sense as to why these use it in other ordinary ways, e.g. justice, fairness, virtue (though the more complete word for virtue is คุณ). Once we understand our nature, we understand the undeniable and unavoidable ‘truth’. Hence why I opted for “truth”, imperfect as it is because it necessitates all this background information to fully understand the various applications of the word ธรรม. Same goes for words like สังขาร and เวทนา. The only way to see how they are connected is through being a practitioner of BuddhaDharma.
It is also helpful in knowing when to stop beating a dead horse. Happy trails and trials on the linguistic journey.
Joseph (Joshua) “น้องชัวร์”
The irony of integrity
What Michael Wilson “some yellow shirts” support Nick Nostitz’s mostly red-shirt Dhammakaya ? Then there’s still some hope for Thai reconciliation.
Reactionary Islamism in Indonesia
The very notion that “Islamism” could be considered reactionary in Indonesia deserves a little interrogation.
To call these groups “reactionary” is to suggest that like ol’ William Buckley they are standing athwart History and yelling “Stop!” when in fact it appears that they are actually intent on radical change in the structures of Indonesian governance. And that sounds resolutely modernist and even revolutionary to me.
I wonder if the author would care to share how he came to identify a “reactionary anti-capitalism” in a former colony of Holland.
Labelling capitalism, especially its manifestation in finance and especially banking, as an enemy of the people may seem reactionary to someone who assumes neoliberal quasi-colonialism to be some sort of progressive adjunct to the advance of universal liberalism but many on the left pretty much anywhere in the real world would likely find cause to differ.
And finally, has Indonesia qua Indonesia ever actually been a “unitary state based on Islamic law” for “reactionaries” to hearken back to as an idealized past to which it would be heavenly to return?
Or are we back in Jim Taylor territory with “reactionary” being used to mean “really really bad” the way “fascism” so sadly often is?
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
I hope it’s not me you are begging to differ from notdisappointed, since we are saying exactly the same thing.
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
Just because various segments of a country’s citizenry are able to speak a different language, as well as the main language of the country in which they are citizens; doesn’t mean they are citizens of the country of the second language. It’s the difference between ethnicity and citizenship.
There are Thais all over the world who speak Thai but are citizens of the country in which they reside. There are also Malaysians who have moved to other countries and are citizens of the country they’ve relocated to; they taken up citizenship of the country that they reside in. How about Syrian refugees who have settled in a 3rd countries, should they also be allowed to live their lives under Sharia law or according to the laws of the country they reside in. I’m sure Thais, Chinese, Jews, Muslims, Germans and etc who have relocated to other countries speak their own languages, but must still follow the laws of the countries that they reside in.
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
I beg to differ. Firstly, to ascribe ethnicity is correct that the a Southern Thais are ethnically Malay in origin. But so to are Chinese Thais who are ethnically Chinese in origin. They also speak many Chinese dialects. And so to are Thailand’s hill tribes who are spread out over Burma, Thailand, and Laos who have their own ethnicity and culture.
Back to so-called Malay Thais; while they originated and are descended from Malays, their nationality and citizenship is Thai not Malaysian. The majority of Thai Muslims consider themselves as being Thai, as many generations have been born and raised in Thailand these past 100+ years. If the minority of Thai Muslims wish to take up Malay citizenship, it’s up to them to do so according to the laws of Malaysia. What do you consider those Chinese Malays, although ethnically Chinese and speak eg. Hokkien; are they Chinese or are they Chinese Malay?
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
I beg to differ. Firstly, to ascribe ethnicity is correct that the a Southern Thais are ethnically Malay in origin. But so to are Chinese Thais who are ethnically Chinese in origin. They also speak many Chinese dialects. And so to are Thailand’s hill tribes who are spread out over Burma, Thailand, and Laos who have their own ethnicity and culture.
Back to so-called Malay Thais; while they originated and are descended from Malays, their nationality and citizenship is Thai not Malaysian. The majority of Thai Muslims consider themselves as being Thai, as many generations have been born and raised in Thailand these past 100+ years. If the minority of Thai Muslims wish to take up Malay citizenship, it’s up to them to do so according to the laws of Malaysia. What do you consider those Chinese Malays, although ethnically Chinese and speak eg. Hokkien; are they Chinese are they Chinese Malay?
Reactionary Islamism in Indonesia
Is there any any branch of Islam, or religion in general that isn’t reactionary? I would suggest not.
It may be the case that the particular brand of sky-God’ery mentioned in the article is MORE reactionary than others, but that l would opinion is fairly trivial when compared to the damage that religion as a whole has inflicted on Indonesia and elsewhere.
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
It’s possible that notdissapointed simply wanted to suggest that nationality counts for something and that the constant harping on race/ethnicity is not the only way of identifying people.
I know Thais from the south who are both Malay and Muslim. It doesn’t stop them from being Thai. And they have no problem being referred to as Thai. It is, after all, what they are.
The irony of integrity
Given Joseph’s discussion of Thai terms, I feel I should offer some observations on same:
The Thai khru ครู is indeed from Sanskrit guru. A great many Thai words are derived from Sanskrit, and not quite so many from Pali. The meanings are often quite profoundly altered. The Thai “khru” is used for elementary and high school teachers, อาจารย์, “achan”, from skt “acariya” is used for university professors, but also for highly educated persons whether they teach or not. The combination ครูบาอาจารย์, “khrubachan”, mentioned by Joseph is perhaps close to what English speakers think of as “guru”. None of this, including the tradition of reverence for teachers, has anything to do with the extreme devotion some Thais develop for distant (often dead) religious leaders.
Other examples of Thai words derived from Sanskrit and Pali:
Upasak อุปสรรค is from Sanskrit “upasarga”. The Thai means obstacle; the Sanskrit means trouble, misfortune.
Wethana เวทนา is from Sanskrit/Pali “vedana”. The Thai means to feel sorry for, to pity; the Sanskrit means feeling, sensation, knowledge, perception and a host of other meanings, none of which have anything to do with feeling sorry for.
Sankhan, สังขาร, is from Pali “sankhara”. The Thai means the physical body, the Pali means compounded or conditioned.
Etc. etc. etc.
In other words the Sanskrit or Pali origionals of loan words tell us nothing obvious about current (or ancient) Thai meanings. BTW, ธรรม, “tham”, from Skt “dharma,” but pronounced more like the Pali “Dhamma” does not mean “truth”. In ordinary Thai it means “justice” or “fairness”, in context, it means “virtue”, “the teachings of the Buddha” plus the wide range of meanings from Buddhist doctrine.
On Luang, หลวง: Any older monk can be called Luang Pho, Luang Pu or Luang Ta—Luang Father, Luang Paternal Grandfather, Luang Maternal Grandfather respectively. Even I was called Luang Pho during my stint as a monk (I put a quick stop to that as I was only 50). There is also Luang Phi, Luang Older Brother. So what does “luang” mean? If I had more than one wife, my first wife would be mialuang, i.e. my Luang Wife; when I get on the highway, I’m driving on the thang luang, i.e. the luang way. The monks called Luang Pho/Pu/Ta in the press are those who have gained virtually universal reverence and devotion, usually after they’ve died. Such terms gives a sense of progenitor/protector. Thus it’s perfectly natural for DK devotees to refer to Phra D. (and any other older DK monk) as Luang Pho etc., but he doesn’t have the near universal devotion to merit that title in the press. OTOH, the press might have shown more respect by using his royal titles, most recently “Phrathepyanmahamuni” (just recently, unjustly, stripped).
Visions of violence in Southern Thailand
because they are Malays? they speak the Kelantan dialect of Malay instead of Thai in their daily lives.
Cambodian youth: shaping relations with Vietnam
R.N. England, you are correct. With the prevalent anti-Vietnamese sentiment, the future of Cambodia seems to be less promising. Both countries have to find ways to settle the issue and live in brotherhood and neighborhood. Although it appears impossible in the immediate future, as mentioned in the article, youth have crucial roles to play. It all starts from youth and the younger generations of both nations.
The irony of integrity
Thanks for the reply. I appologize for the harshness of my original post. Really I was just concerned with attribution. I have no problem with your contribution being published and don’t expect all contributors to be academics. As you said in Thai, issues surrounding the DK are complex, but I think it’s been tossed about enough in this thread. I’ll only say this: I can validly give informed criticism of DK and Phra D. without joining the one and knowing the other personally just as I can criticize the junta and General P. without being personally involved.
The irony of integrity
Nope. One has nothing to do with the other & I don’t see how you made the connection. I think I agree with Joshua that DK isn’t a redshirt temple–but the claim that it is isn’t a “conspiracy”, or even a conspiracy theory, it’s a fairly common, but far from universal, opinion that’s been around for years. But there is much that is murky about both the DK and the junta’s actions.