Hi Peter,
Thanks for the comment. Of course you are right to say that urban poverty is not uniquely an Indonesian problem, and that there’s really no easy solution to it.
I do find some parts of your comment a little confusing though; not entirely sure if they are your personal musing or if they are directed to what I wrote. Here are just some examples:
“please do not make me crawl with laughter by saying Sukarno, Megawati, Habibie or Gus Dus created Indonesia’s middle-class.”
– I don’t believe that I’m responsible for making you crawling with laughter because I did not discuss the creation of the middle class in Indonesia in the article.
“They [street people] will increase in Indonesia, and it is not because Jokowi is a middle-class bureaucrat and is insensitive to the poor”
— No, I most certainly did not argue that Jokowi’s middle-class background can have anything to do with the increase of urban poverty.
“you honestly think Prabowo would be more
sensitive to the needs of the street class?”
— Not at all. But why does the discussion of sensitivity towards the plight of urban poor must be limited to either Jokowi or Prabowo?
“Indonesia cannot, and should not be stupid enough to try, to emulate Iceland, it won’t work.”
— I did not argue that Indonesia should emulate Iceland, or that Jokowi should hand out free accommodation to all the homeless people in Indonesia. There are many ways that the government can help: better communication with the to-be-evictees, coordination with social welfare groups to provide assistance to the evictees, and crack down on the use of thugs in eviction, for instance. All of these are quite feasible. The United Nations Human Settlements Program also provides a list of recommendations that the Indonesian government could follow.
There are a lot of stereotypes about the people living in informal settlements: that they are drug-users, people who couldn’t or wouldn’t look for work…etc.
The fact of the matter is, in Jakarta most people who belong to the lower income bracket / urban poor are likely to fall victim to forced eviction because most of them live on unregistered government lands with ambiguous status. To draw the picture a little, we are not talking about homeless & jobless down and out living at a particular corner of the street for a few months. We are talking about families who have been living in a house/tent/structure of some sort for as long as three generations, and with most of the members (including small children) working multiple jobs to keep their humble living.
It wouldn’t be adequate to equate the two.
For Mr. Nostitz research and flattering photo shoots about the Thai Red Shirts and their grievances, perhaps he could articulate why it was necessary to wage the Year2010 terror campaign, led by the late Gen. Khattiya (with the nodding approval from Thaksin and Red leaders), of indiscriminate bombings-shootings-arson?
And how could Mr. Nostitz “miss” the opportunities to shoot those ubiquitous Black Shirts in the midst of all those Red Shirts right in front of his very professional and focused photographic eyes?
Name one nation, larger than 200 million people, that has eliminated street poverty.
Every American city has people living under overpasses. Though less common, it is hardly non-existent in neighboring Malaysia, wealthier than Indonesia. The condition of poverty is a function of many factors, which include BOTH government policy and individual responsibility. Some people who live under overpasses drink and take drugs and cannot work; some cannot work because they cannot find work; and some can find work if they tried hard enough but prefer not to; and some are mentally ill, living a different frame of reference than those who aren’t. Indonesia has never had a holistic government that handle multiple tasks; frankly, since Sukarno, almost all leadership has been rhetoric, except the one leader, Indonesians hate the most. You can argue till the cows come home that Suharto and Golkar were dictatorial and corrupt, and few would disagree with you. I can also provide stats showing almost all quality of life parameters IMPROVED under Suharto (except, of course, for those who challenged Suharto). The Indonesian middle-class is due to Suharto, and please do not make me crawl with laughter by saying Sukarno, Megawati, Habibie or Gus Dus created Indonesia’s middle-class. Gus Dur was great for tolerance
and advocacy for moderate Islam, but a lousy technocrat (hard when you are 65 % blind). Megawati 2 or 3 day work weeks ? Oh sure.
I have no idea if Lee Kuan Yew is correct and that economic advancement moves faster under an autocratic system; it certainly worked for Singapore, and despite all their stupid bungling and corruption, UMNO and BN
say Malaysia go from poverty to the second richest nation in ASEAN. There have always been street people in Indonesia, even before
independence, as income gaps inevitably widen, and the World Bank has show, that
almost everywhere outside the West, they have. They will increase in Indonesia, and it is not because Jokowi is a middle-class bureaucrat and is insensitive to the poor (you honestly think Prabowo would be more
sensitive to the needs of the street class ?), it is because, the global economy and currency markets and paradigm shifts away from primary resources and raw materials, to a service economy, puts extra strain on the poor, EVERYWHERE (except places like Norway, Sweden and Iceland, that
hardly has any poverty). Indonesia cannot, and should not be stupid enough to try, to emulate Iceland, it won’t work. Unless, President Jokowi is willing to take every single street dweller, guarantee them a stable home fit to live in, and a steady job that pays enough to put nasi on the table, then there will be more and more and more people in Indonesia, living under overpasses, and there is no mortal entity that can prevent it.
The junta crony and Chinese tycoon from Singapore, Serge Pun (or Poon, I would write) with his “Yoma Strategic Holdings(sic)” got the Burmese franchise for KFC. If he would hire Rohingyas he might end up with the Nobel Peace Prize LOL
That worthy jewish master of Gobble Ed Barneys would have a little chuckle. Whatever yo want to do, it is nowadys so easy to cover up with pseudo-caring hypocrit “Progressives” ready to fight for a “cause”.
There are plenty of choices, diseases, terror, environment, LGBT (human are equal, more equaler than Blair) and of course her we care so much about the disadvantaged goody-goody label for screwing the whole nation.
It is not jsut poor nutrition at stajke here, but the total change of mentality and direct passage for socail manipulations via movies, games and cartoon characters, “Fool the Stupids 101”.
Aksa due to the extremely long but very narrow layout of the rally site was very difficult to guesstimate. Even intel numbers differed widely.
During the 2 or 3 peak days estimates range from 40 000 to 80 000 (as far as i can remember without looking into my note books). On normal days the numbers were of course far lower, from a few thousand in day time to maybe up to 10 000 in the evening.
It has to be noted though that the UDD did not spend as much effort into mobilization of people as they did in 2010, which had far higher numbers on peak days (as far as i can remember, without looking into my notes, around 150 000).
Ludo – while there has been some reporting on the drug war, very little has been done on the background of the drug war. Only Connors has done a bit more on the drug war ( http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2010/06/war-on-drugs.html ), but also he just hints at some what led to it, and what was involved in that machine.
Kraisak is well aware what else is involved, but he has chosen to use the drug war killings for his own political agenda (and i have said that to him in person, which he was not very happy about to hear… ).
I am not in a position to say any more about this in this debate. But i predict that there will never be any proper investigation into the drug war killings. Inactivity of several anti-Thaksin governments since the 2006 military coup should have made it quite clear by now that Democrat/PAD/PDRC rhetoric on this issue is nothing but empty blather and mudslinging with no interest whatsoever in starting any real investigations. If one is not completely blinded by hate speech, this fact should be a lesson on Thai reality.
Interesting that 4 people should mark BB Lucille down for an accurate translation of part of a famous nationally broadcast speech made on 5th December 2003. The “war on drugs” was actually kicked off by the same speaker in his birthday speech exactly one year before. There can be little doubt that that speech set the tone for all the atrocities that followed. As one of the King’s Privy Councillors, Phichit Kunlawanit, put it,”if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma”! Indeed the massive public support throughout the three-month campaign, including the brutal methods by which it was conducted, says a lot about what the concept of human rights actually means to the Thai people as a whole. But then Human rights is actually a much more modern concept than most people realise, which has only come to be developed in countries where democracy is rather more firmly established than it is in Thailand.
Not disappointed I haven’t yet read one argument supported by any substantive facts. AMM and Nick along with other contributors refer us to their source material. You on the other hand are content to attack them accuse them of slanted journalism and not produce one jot of evidence to support your claims.
my grade 8 students can
do better than that.
This my point concerning nostitz’s slanted journalism. His research just goes deep enough to place the onus on those he accuses and judge to be guity: those that he doesn’t favor.
In this regard he is just like andymac; who because of his 10,000 words fiction thinks and convinces NMites that his words are the words of the ‘expert’. Far from it, but your minds and logic have already been made up and skewed to believe anything that jives with your biases and predujudices.
I stand corrected, there are former CPT members on both sides of this current conflict, thanks for the information. Amazing how ideologies of so many can be changed.
Nick, regarding the drug on wars I can understand when you accuse Kraisak Choonhavan of being biased. But there is also Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, United Nations, New York Times to name a few who I believe have done at least some independent investigations. BBC and Reuters have both reported on several human rights infringements as well.
Two months ago, in a village in Kelantan, Malaysia, a 14-year old Malay girl was savagely raped and beaten, for 14 hours. She was raped by 38 “mature” Muslim Malay men. Question: If this is not an act of “peace” (silly me), is it sanctioned by the Qur’an ? If it is not sanctioned by the Qur’an, why have no members of Malaysia’s Ulema said one single word, not one, about this act of “peace” ? If you find my question disturbing or offensive, that is fine, to each her own, but would you be so offended at the questioner, where it your daughter ? Thank you.
1. BN owns the judiciary
2. BN owns the Police
3. BN owns the Military
and for good measure
4. BN owns the thugs that masquerade as NGOs and UMNO youths to not only harass, intimidate, but actually physically attack any groups not supportive of the current Govt. This includes invading the Penang Parliament with the police watching..
This is an impressive list of half baked polemic accusations, a rant that to the most part simply does not stand up to any scrutiny. I will restrict myself to just answering a few exemplary points raised.
You asked: “- I can’t believe that respected (in his mind) nostitz and andymac so well-known for their fair and balanced reporting who do such an outstanding job of researching for (one-sided) half-truths could not even say anything about the 30 deaths and countless injusries caused by the terrorists supported by the yingluck government, but can cite one case of Laksi why justice isn’t served. How about those deaths and injured, why haven’t you called for justice for them.”
This statement is simply wrong. Of the around 30 deaths during the PDRC protests, 17 have been PDRC members, and the remainder – – Red Shirts, police officers, and innocents – were killed by PDRC fighters.
It is not really my job “calling for justice”. But to state some facts here: Many Red Shirt fighters were arrested, the ones responsible for the Trat and the Big C incidents have confessed after their arrest, for example. Accused of many other incidents have arrest warrants against them, such as the perpetrator of the Victory Monument incident.
On the PDRC side the killers of one of the 3 Red Shirt victims in the Ramkhamhaeng incident have been arrested (with the gun used in their possession). The so called “Popcorn shooter” of the Laksi incident has been arrested. But none of the other PDRC fighters, some of them clearly identifiable, have been arrested, or even face arrest warrants.
And on a personal note – i have filed 2 cases – over the assault on me on November 25, 2013, and the abduction attempt on May 7, 2014. Both cases have not moved forward one inch, even though there are clear videos and photos available of especially the first incident. Even so far two requests by the UN to the Thai government regarding my case went unanswered. It is quite obvious that the perpetrators are protected on very high level. Justice…
For your points regarding the rice scheme, i may refer you to work by Marwaan Macan-Markar, who is far more competent than me in this issue. I still wait though, 5 months after the coup, for the evidence of the alleged “massive corruption”. Where is it?
The drug war is a far more complex matter than can possibly be discussed here. The statement that more “innocents” died than drug dealers is to be taken with a grain of salt, as it comes from a more than biased source – the so called investigating committee in which Kraisak Choonhavan was a leading member. Kraisak was both a member of the PAD and the PDRC (during which time he has accused, during a speech on the stage, that Jonathan Head was in the pay of Thaksin).
I would very much welcome a truly independent, factual, and all-encompassing investigation into the drug war killings. I have not ignored these killings at all – i have taken photos during that time, but at the time international media had very little interest as this occurred during the run up of the Iraq invasion. Back then there was no New Mandala, or similar blogs i was aware of, and the only places i could get some of my images published were a spread in colors magazine, and an art project of a German gallery, from 2003: http://www.imagesagainstwar.com/316.html
Therefore, i would suggest to better do your research before you falsely accuse me of “slanted” journalism.
Victory in the War on Drugs is good. They may blame the crackdown for more than 2,500 deaths, but this is a small price to pay. If the prime minister failed to curb [the drug trade], over the years the number of deaths would easily surpass this toll
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Life under a railway flyover
Hi Peter,
Thanks for the comment. Of course you are right to say that urban poverty is not uniquely an Indonesian problem, and that there’s really no easy solution to it.
I do find some parts of your comment a little confusing though; not entirely sure if they are your personal musing or if they are directed to what I wrote. Here are just some examples:
“please do not make me crawl with laughter by saying Sukarno, Megawati, Habibie or Gus Dus created Indonesia’s middle-class.”
– I don’t believe that I’m responsible for making you crawling with laughter because I did not discuss the creation of the middle class in Indonesia in the article.
“They [street people] will increase in Indonesia, and it is not because Jokowi is a middle-class bureaucrat and is insensitive to the poor”
— No, I most certainly did not argue that Jokowi’s middle-class background can have anything to do with the increase of urban poverty.
“you honestly think Prabowo would be more
sensitive to the needs of the street class?”
— Not at all. But why does the discussion of sensitivity towards the plight of urban poor must be limited to either Jokowi or Prabowo?
“Indonesia cannot, and should not be stupid enough to try, to emulate Iceland, it won’t work.”
— I did not argue that Indonesia should emulate Iceland, or that Jokowi should hand out free accommodation to all the homeless people in Indonesia. There are many ways that the government can help: better communication with the to-be-evictees, coordination with social welfare groups to provide assistance to the evictees, and crack down on the use of thugs in eviction, for instance. All of these are quite feasible. The United Nations Human Settlements Program also provides a list of recommendations that the Indonesian government could follow.
There are a lot of stereotypes about the people living in informal settlements: that they are drug-users, people who couldn’t or wouldn’t look for work…etc.
The fact of the matter is, in Jakarta most people who belong to the lower income bracket / urban poor are likely to fall victim to forced eviction because most of them live on unregistered government lands with ambiguous status. To draw the picture a little, we are not talking about homeless & jobless down and out living at a particular corner of the street for a few months. We are talking about families who have been living in a house/tent/structure of some sort for as long as three generations, and with most of the members (including small children) working multiple jobs to keep their humble living.
It wouldn’t be adequate to equate the two.
A numbers game: Social media and political legitimacy
For Mr. Nostitz research and flattering photo shoots about the Thai Red Shirts and their grievances, perhaps he could articulate why it was necessary to wage the Year2010 terror campaign, led by the late Gen. Khattiya (with the nodding approval from Thaksin and Red leaders), of indiscriminate bombings-shootings-arson?
And how could Mr. Nostitz “miss” the opportunities to shoot those ubiquitous Black Shirts in the midst of all those Red Shirts right in front of his very professional and focused photographic eyes?
Life under a railway flyover
Name one nation, larger than 200 million people, that has eliminated street poverty.
Every American city has people living under overpasses. Though less common, it is hardly non-existent in neighboring Malaysia, wealthier than Indonesia. The condition of poverty is a function of many factors, which include BOTH government policy and individual responsibility. Some people who live under overpasses drink and take drugs and cannot work; some cannot work because they cannot find work; and some can find work if they tried hard enough but prefer not to; and some are mentally ill, living a different frame of reference than those who aren’t. Indonesia has never had a holistic government that handle multiple tasks; frankly, since Sukarno, almost all leadership has been rhetoric, except the one leader, Indonesians hate the most. You can argue till the cows come home that Suharto and Golkar were dictatorial and corrupt, and few would disagree with you. I can also provide stats showing almost all quality of life parameters IMPROVED under Suharto (except, of course, for those who challenged Suharto). The Indonesian middle-class is due to Suharto, and please do not make me crawl with laughter by saying Sukarno, Megawati, Habibie or Gus Dus created Indonesia’s middle-class. Gus Dur was great for tolerance
and advocacy for moderate Islam, but a lousy technocrat (hard when you are 65 % blind). Megawati 2 or 3 day work weeks ? Oh sure.
I have no idea if Lee Kuan Yew is correct and that economic advancement moves faster under an autocratic system; it certainly worked for Singapore, and despite all their stupid bungling and corruption, UMNO and BN
say Malaysia go from poverty to the second richest nation in ASEAN. There have always been street people in Indonesia, even before
independence, as income gaps inevitably widen, and the World Bank has show, that
almost everywhere outside the West, they have. They will increase in Indonesia, and it is not because Jokowi is a middle-class bureaucrat and is insensitive to the poor (you honestly think Prabowo would be more
sensitive to the needs of the street class ?), it is because, the global economy and currency markets and paradigm shifts away from primary resources and raw materials, to a service economy, puts extra strain on the poor, EVERYWHERE (except places like Norway, Sweden and Iceland, that
hardly has any poverty). Indonesia cannot, and should not be stupid enough to try, to emulate Iceland, it won’t work. Unless, President Jokowi is willing to take every single street dweller, guarantee them a stable home fit to live in, and a steady job that pays enough to put nasi on the table, then there will be more and more and more people in Indonesia, living under overpasses, and there is no mortal entity that can prevent it.
Burgers and social responsibility in Myanmar
The junta crony and Chinese tycoon from Singapore, Serge Pun (or Poon, I would write) with his “Yoma Strategic Holdings(sic)” got the Burmese franchise for KFC. If he would hire Rohingyas he might end up with the Nobel Peace Prize LOL
Burgers and social responsibility in Myanmar
Plan B,
In case you haven’t come across. About useless, careless lots.
http://resistir.info/livros/john_perkins_confessions_of_an_economic_hit_man.pdf
Burgers and social responsibility in Myanmar
Fool the stupids 101.
That worthy jewish master of Gobble Ed Barneys would have a little chuckle. Whatever yo want to do, it is nowadys so easy to cover up with pseudo-caring hypocrit “Progressives” ready to fight for a “cause”.
There are plenty of choices, diseases, terror, environment, LGBT (human are equal, more equaler than Blair) and of course her we care so much about the disadvantaged goody-goody label for screwing the whole nation.
It is not jsut poor nutrition at stajke here, but the total change of mentality and direct passage for socail manipulations via movies, games and cartoon characters, “Fool the Stupids 101”.
A numbers game: Social media and political legitimacy
Aksa due to the extremely long but very narrow layout of the rally site was very difficult to guesstimate. Even intel numbers differed widely.
During the 2 or 3 peak days estimates range from 40 000 to 80 000 (as far as i can remember without looking into my note books). On normal days the numbers were of course far lower, from a few thousand in day time to maybe up to 10 000 in the evening.
It has to be noted though that the UDD did not spend as much effort into mobilization of people as they did in 2010, which had far higher numbers on peak days (as far as i can remember, without looking into my notes, around 150 000).
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
Ludo – while there has been some reporting on the drug war, very little has been done on the background of the drug war. Only Connors has done a bit more on the drug war ( http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2010/06/war-on-drugs.html ), but also he just hints at some what led to it, and what was involved in that machine.
).
Kraisak is well aware what else is involved, but he has chosen to use the drug war killings for his own political agenda (and i have said that to him in person, which he was not very happy about to hear…
I am not in a position to say any more about this in this debate. But i predict that there will never be any proper investigation into the drug war killings. Inactivity of several anti-Thaksin governments since the 2006 military coup should have made it quite clear by now that Democrat/PAD/PDRC rhetoric on this issue is nothing but empty blather and mudslinging with no interest whatsoever in starting any real investigations. If one is not completely blinded by hate speech, this fact should be a lesson on Thai reality.
Burgers and social responsibility in Myanmar
Nick
Sorry, no go. Only cronies of cronies will get the KFC franchises.
I will very suspicious putting this ‘front’.
As for ‘disabled’ status in Myanmar the ‘Invalid’ signs in bathroom says a lot.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
notdisappointed’s “source material” is usually the diatribes of Tony Cartalucci.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
Interesting that 4 people should mark BB Lucille down for an accurate translation of part of a famous nationally broadcast speech made on 5th December 2003. The “war on drugs” was actually kicked off by the same speaker in his birthday speech exactly one year before. There can be little doubt that that speech set the tone for all the atrocities that followed. As one of the King’s Privy Councillors, Phichit Kunlawanit, put it,”if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma”! Indeed the massive public support throughout the three-month campaign, including the brutal methods by which it was conducted, says a lot about what the concept of human rights actually means to the Thai people as a whole. But then Human rights is actually a much more modern concept than most people realise, which has only come to be developed in countries where democracy is rather more firmly established than it is in Thailand.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
Not disappointed I haven’t yet read one argument supported by any substantive facts. AMM and Nick along with other contributors refer us to their source material. You on the other hand are content to attack them accuse them of slanted journalism and not produce one jot of evidence to support your claims.
my grade 8 students can
do better than that.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
This my point concerning nostitz’s slanted journalism. His research just goes deep enough to place the onus on those he accuses and judge to be guity: those that he doesn’t favor.
In this regard he is just like andymac; who because of his 10,000 words fiction thinks and convinces NMites that his words are the words of the ‘expert’. Far from it, but your minds and logic have already been made up and skewed to believe anything that jives with your biases and predujudices.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
I stand corrected, there are former CPT members on both sides of this current conflict, thanks for the information. Amazing how ideologies of so many can be changed.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
Nick, regarding the drug on wars I can understand when you accuse Kraisak Choonhavan of being biased. But there is also Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, United Nations, New York Times to name a few who I believe have done at least some independent investigations. BBC and Reuters have both reported on several human rights infringements as well.
Islam, a religion of peace
Two months ago, in a village in Kelantan, Malaysia, a 14-year old Malay girl was savagely raped and beaten, for 14 hours. She was raped by 38 “mature” Muslim Malay men. Question: If this is not an act of “peace” (silly me), is it sanctioned by the Qur’an ? If it is not sanctioned by the Qur’an, why have no members of Malaysia’s Ulema said one single word, not one, about this act of “peace” ? If you find my question disturbing or offensive, that is fine, to each her own, but would you be so offended at the questioner, where it your daughter ? Thank you.
PKR MPs on tour down under
And now the real reasons :
1. BN owns the judiciary
2. BN owns the Police
3. BN owns the Military
and for good measure
4. BN owns the thugs that masquerade as NGOs and UMNO youths to not only harass, intimidate, but actually physically attack any groups not supportive of the current Govt. This includes invading the Penang Parliament with the police watching..
I rest my case.
WaAllahu’alam …, Kassim Ahmad
Speaking of peace (a PERMANENT peace):
http://news.yahoo.com/bashar-al-assad-s-syrian-torture-chambers-205323124.html
If you can’t smell the stench, you aren’t
close enough.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
This is an impressive list of half baked polemic accusations, a rant that to the most part simply does not stand up to any scrutiny. I will restrict myself to just answering a few exemplary points raised.
You asked: “- I can’t believe that respected (in his mind) nostitz and andymac so well-known for their fair and balanced reporting who do such an outstanding job of researching for (one-sided) half-truths could not even say anything about the 30 deaths and countless injusries caused by the terrorists supported by the yingluck government, but can cite one case of Laksi why justice isn’t served. How about those deaths and injured, why haven’t you called for justice for them.”
This statement is simply wrong. Of the around 30 deaths during the PDRC protests, 17 have been PDRC members, and the remainder – – Red Shirts, police officers, and innocents – were killed by PDRC fighters.
It is not really my job “calling for justice”. But to state some facts here: Many Red Shirt fighters were arrested, the ones responsible for the Trat and the Big C incidents have confessed after their arrest, for example. Accused of many other incidents have arrest warrants against them, such as the perpetrator of the Victory Monument incident.
On the PDRC side the killers of one of the 3 Red Shirt victims in the Ramkhamhaeng incident have been arrested (with the gun used in their possession). The so called “Popcorn shooter” of the Laksi incident has been arrested. But none of the other PDRC fighters, some of them clearly identifiable, have been arrested, or even face arrest warrants.
And on a personal note – i have filed 2 cases – over the assault on me on November 25, 2013, and the abduction attempt on May 7, 2014. Both cases have not moved forward one inch, even though there are clear videos and photos available of especially the first incident. Even so far two requests by the UN to the Thai government regarding my case went unanswered. It is quite obvious that the perpetrators are protected on very high level. Justice…
For your points regarding the rice scheme, i may refer you to work by Marwaan Macan-Markar, who is far more competent than me in this issue. I still wait though, 5 months after the coup, for the evidence of the alleged “massive corruption”. Where is it?
The drug war is a far more complex matter than can possibly be discussed here. The statement that more “innocents” died than drug dealers is to be taken with a grain of salt, as it comes from a more than biased source – the so called investigating committee in which Kraisak Choonhavan was a leading member. Kraisak was both a member of the PAD and the PDRC (during which time he has accused, during a speech on the stage, that Jonathan Head was in the pay of Thaksin).
I would very much welcome a truly independent, factual, and all-encompassing investigation into the drug war killings. I have not ignored these killings at all – i have taken photos during that time, but at the time international media had very little interest as this occurred during the run up of the Iraq invasion. Back then there was no New Mandala, or similar blogs i was aware of, and the only places i could get some of my images published were a spread in colors magazine, and an art project of a German gallery, from 2003: http://www.imagesagainstwar.com/316.html
Therefore, i would suggest to better do your research before you falsely accuse me of “slanted” journalism.
Thailand’s Prayuth: Not just another coup-maker
Victory in the War on Drugs is good. They may blame the crackdown for more than 2,500 deaths, but this is a small price to pay. If the prime minister failed to curb [the drug trade], over the years the number of deaths would easily surpass this toll