‘Don’t go on rampages / riots wanting to kill Muslims’
Kerusuhan Kupang 1998. Had to be there. Hush – we won’t mention Maluku either.
‘The strategy of accommodating Muslims sentiments might be obvious to you in the short run, but if you take a long run view its bad for secular parties like the PDi-P.’
The late, great, PDIP luminary Chris Siner Key Timu would’ve disgreed with you. His involvement with the Petisi 50 stemmed from his disagreement with the Church and it’s binary ‘Minus Malum’ strategy ie TNI or Islam – guess which one the Church chose – for which he became a non-person. Chris believed the task of ‘socialising’ Islam to Liberal Democracy was a long term project, but one had to begin somewhere. Unofficially of course, his home in Slipi was buzzing.
Its only been 3-4 elections cycles. And the 1-2 elections was during reformasi era they usually elected the holdovers from the Suharto era.
Tell me what differences does it make if they are district / provincial elections. Its most likely these regions will elect Muslim governor before Jakarta does, because they don’t have run offs. Its very unlikely Jakarta will ever elected a non-Muslim governor, largely because of run off system. To be frank, Governors outside of Jakarta/Aceh/Yogyakarta don’t have as much funds/power as a bupati does.
As for those regions not electing a Muslim governor, all I know is they don’t do the following 1) Go running around the street in the hundred of thousands shouting kill the unbeliever 2) Don’t go on rampages / riots wanting to kill Muslims 3) Press for a blasphemy trial 4) Want to lynch said Muslim candidate 5) Threaten the female supporters of said Muslim candidate with rape. 6) Intimidating the candidate everywhere he goes. It seems that you are praising such tactics over the implicit and soft bigotry found in non-Muslim provinces.
As for the stupidity of the PDI-P.. Maybe you should run the PDI-P instead of Megawati. Most of us wouldn’t last a week in that position, so don’t pretend like most people in New Mandala that you can do better. The problem isn’t PDI-P, its the fact that the opposition is willing to use sectarianism because its easy. And its naive to think its restricted to Ahok. They went after Jokowi in 2014, and they are going after Kamil in 2018. And the reason they do this is because they have no or a very poor record (ie PKS in West Java). And why do you suppose that the PDI-P would have won if they put a Muslim candidate in Jakarta?
Yes Jokowi will lose if his opponent double down on the sectarian card, because that is the only way they can win. He has always been vulnerable to this issue since he ran for Jakarta Governor in 2012. Jokowi has never carried the majority of the Muslim vote in Jakarta/Indonesia. So what mindset can the PDI-P change so Jokowi isn’t vulnerable to those attacks? PDI-P can’t change over night, just as the PKS can’t all of a sudden embrace non-Muslims.
The strategy of accommodating Muslims sentiments might be obvious to you in the short run, but if you take a long run view its bad for secular parties like the PDi-P. They have been doing this in regional election since 2004. Want to get support of the PKS/PPP, a PDI-P Bupati makes Muslims female civil servants wear the hijab. Slowly over time more religion creeps in. Instead of being stupid as you seem to imply, maybe the national leadership in the PDI-P and other secular parties are finally realizing the monster they built on short term electoral expediency. Its most likely too late.
It is a doomed you do, doomed if you don’t situation when Ahok decided to get PDIP official backing rather than a independent candidate. The election committe had just issued a rule that make Ahok’s independent supporters life more difficult if they want to support Ahok by requiring them to be present at the election office during week days and within limited time frame to confirm their identity. The rule was a new one issued close to the deadline for candidate registration timeline. Who knows what other regulations the commission had and ready to be issued if Ahok went ahead as independent.
But I think mainly he lost because of two internal factors. First it seems that he didn’t have a strong campaign team. The do have passion but not strong campaign strategy and nor sophisticated PR. May be it is against their policy to pay good proffessionals despite their big funding from the people.
Second, he has a knack in sabotaging his own campaign. For example, saying something that is easily twisted against him and showing no respect to a prominent and very senior ulema in court (although Ahok could be right that he is a crook).
External factors include a proffessional, solid and fierce campaign team of his opponent and Almaidah 51.
Nick — Excellent and clear analysis of a murky cultural concept. It is implicated not only in the Rohingya case, but also in the designation and acceptance of “legitimized” ethnic groups and sub-groups. The conflicts over the census show how well that has worked out.
My comment was related to Bali, NTT, Sulut and Papua, their implicit sectarianism, refusal to elect Muslim Governors and the role of PDIP in maintaining such a status quo while challenging it in Jakarta. You have chosen to ignore it totally with a diversion to Kalimantan. If your response reflects the state of PDIP reflection on their recent failure, Widodo is a goner.
Excellent analysis, but rather over generalizes “Rohingya advocates”- many are acutely aware that the notion of taingyintha is the root of the problem, and their advocacy reflects that; but, yes, some do also recapitulate the very terms of this deeply problematic (and leaky) notion in their demands for equal treatment qua taingyintha, notably the band of naive fools “leading” HaY/ARSA.
Bravo Claudio, nice article. BKK food vendors did not occur in a vacuum and do not exist in one either. They are a dependent variable to the Thai political economy which has focused on attracting privileged capital of investment, with the actual habitation is the city an afterthought. Food vendors make it possible for the lower level workers to live in the city. Their own living spaces lack kitchens (less then half of residences have kitchens) so the low cost food vendors offer are a necessity. Even though they are part of the informal economy theory are also an integral part of the formal economy.
In the past there has been a reasonable amount of tolerance for the vendors and I agree with John Walsh that it would be difficult for the BMA to crack down any harder than it is, as its likely to get push back (NYT article today on vending is SE Asia).
But it is upsetting the the dictatorship is applying their button down approach to solving social problems through enacting laws (such as forbidding riding in the back of pickup trucks) that go against the grain of social practice which has been customary for decades. Walsh said ” most of these laws are made by people who don’t have to go and get their own lunch”.
The NYTimes article quoted the number of legally registered vendors at 11,000 while neglecting to mention that the amount of unregistered vendors is very likely at 400,000. This is roughly 2% of the population, a figure not unlike other Southern mega-cities such as New Delhi and Jakarta. Vendors in Thailand are under counted and relatively voiceless. But they make Bangkok somewhat live able in spite of the messy, unruly, chaos that seems to part and parcel of their current food system. As Michael Wilson noted above food vending is a vehicle for upward mobility (it also serves a in a capacity for downward mobility- see articles about the Sandwich Man of Bangkok. Most vendors experience financial success and earn above the minimum wage. But its not easy to forget that this involves working on a noisy, polluted street for many hours a day.
Vendors are almost completely unorganized This puts them at a disadvantage in negotiating for their right to inhabit contested spaces in the urban environment.
But it is precisely this disorganization that makes them an independent variable who represent an ideological danger to the junta, I read Sopranzetti’s thesis on the win motorcycle system and it was very clear how this system is similar to vendor’s practice around Bangkok. In my own thesis “Occupying Bangkok: Mobile Vendors and Democratic Attitudes” I label this type of practice “conspicuously mutinous”.
Their practice of taking over areas in direct response to their own financial needs and desires of the inhabitants of the city while ignoring the directives of the BMA is a form of democratic movement similar to what is imagined by Gramsi and Lefebvre. I don’t know if KSC and the BMA have considered the fact that the Arab Spring was started by the suicide of an affronted food vendor. While at the same time I would like to remind NM readers that just last year an Italian researcher who was working on this very subject in Cairo was abducted and murdered.
Bravo Claudio, nice article. BKK food vendors did not occur in a vacuum and do not exist in one either. They are a dependent variable to the Thai political economy which has focused on attracting privileged capital of investment, while the actual habitation is the city is an afterthought. Food vendors make it possible for the lower level workers to live in the city with its lack of kitchen facilities within living spaces (less then half of residences have kitchens) through the low cost food they offer thereby being an important cog within the formal economy.
In the past there has been a reasonable amount of tolerance for the vendors and I agree with John Walsh that it would be difficult for the BMA to crack down any harder than it is, as its likely to get push back (NYT article today on vending is SE Asia).
But its upsetting the the dictatorship is applying their button down approach to solving social problems through enacting laws (such as forbidding riding in the back of pickup trucks) that go against the grain of social practice which has been customary for decades. Walsh said ” most of these laws are made by people who don’t have to go and get their own lunch”.
I read Sopranzetti’s thesis on the win motorcycle system and it was very clear how this system is similar to vendor’s practice around Bangkok. In my own thesis I call this practice “a conspicuous mutiny”. The NYTimes article quoted the amount of legally registered vendors a 11,000 while neglecting to mention that the amount of unregisted vendors is very likely at 400,000. This is roughly 2% of the population, a figure not unlike other Southern mega-cities such as New Delhi and Jakarta.
Vendors in Thailand are under counted and relatively voiceless. But they make Bangkok somewhat live able in spite of the messy, unruly, chaos that seems to part and parcel of their current food system. As Michael Wilson noted above food vending is a vehicle for upward mobility (it also serves a in a capacity for downward mobility- see articles about the Sandwich Man of Bangkok. Most vendors experience financial success and earn above the minimum wage. At the same time it ain’t easy working on a noisy, polluted street for many hours a day.
Vendors are almost completely unorganized This really puts them at a disadvantage in negotiating for their right to inhabit advantageous commercial areas. But it is precisely this disorganization that makes them an independent variable who represent an ideological danger to the junta, Their practice of taking over areas in direct response to their own financial needs and desires of the inhabitants of the city while ignoring the directives of the BMA is a form of democracy movement similar to what was imagined by Gramsi.and Lefebvre.
Christine – though I have IMMENSE respect for you, because of your brave, long analysis : could you please explain to me what chance feminism has of changing anything in Thailand ? I think regional and elite divisions are much more likely to do that.
WHICH “wife” of General Sarit ? He was known for having more than a few ! A firm believer in / practitioner of, the Mia Yai Mia noi – major wife, minor wife system – was Sarit.
I believe the subject of the issue is Srirasmi. However, with regard to Sirindhorn, Andrew did suggest that she might flee to China AFTER the cremation of the Rama IX. After the dust has settled, so to speak,il it would appear.
Morgan – “Bumiphol weak and ineffectual” ?? You must be joking !! Bumiphol- with Generals Sarit and Prem – re-built Royal strength from weakness. And that is what his son has inherited. As the old saying goes: “greatness is built on the shoulders of giants”. Just ask those giants guarding the entrance to Bangkok palaces.
Kaz, by your naive comments you don’t seem to live in Bkk.
An example “why rent a shophouse and declare your income”. The simple answer to this is money; poor people can not afford 50 – 100K monthly rent, plus two months deposit.
The “paying a little pin money to the local boss” is another false fact of yours. The vendors pay to the “tessakit” officers, municipal officers, just as other industries pay to the police ie transport drivers. They also pay to shop owners too, as Michael Wilson pointed out.
Kaz if you want a sterile and expensive ffod scene I suggest you move to Singapore.
Just ask anyone resident in Bkk how they love the convenience of street food and the ease of never being more than 50 metres from a snack or meal. Who would want to travel to a crowded “designated market area”?
Jane Hansen – not only is”prostitution not legal in Thailand, and ….. that is good”. It also does not exist there. I know, because a Thai government minister- of Thaksin era – once famously pronounced: “there is NO prostitution in Pattaya” !!
If Ahok had went down the independent route, would he have gotten the support in the face of withering attacks for Islamic hardliners? In a normal campaign it would have been effective. But in a dirty campaign would volunteers have been effective? Would there have been clashes between volunteers and Islamic hardliners?
And you think Anies won’t be making a lot of compromises and breaking promises as Governor of Jakarta?
Up until now Gerindra has been able to run on sectarianism and outrageous promises, once they have a record in which their opponents can attack them with, then it will become less effective.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Jakarta: inequality and the poverty of elite pluralism
‘Don’t go on rampages / riots wanting to kill Muslims’
Kerusuhan Kupang 1998. Had to be there. Hush – we won’t mention Maluku either.
‘The strategy of accommodating Muslims sentiments might be obvious to you in the short run, but if you take a long run view its bad for secular parties like the PDi-P.’
The late, great, PDIP luminary Chris Siner Key Timu would’ve disgreed with you. His involvement with the Petisi 50 stemmed from his disagreement with the Church and it’s binary ‘Minus Malum’ strategy ie TNI or Islam – guess which one the Church chose – for which he became a non-person. Chris believed the task of ‘socialising’ Islam to Liberal Democracy was a long term project, but one had to begin somewhere. Unofficially of course, his home in Slipi was buzzing.
Perhaps you contributed to the buzz?
Jakarta: inequality and the poverty of elite pluralism
Its only been 3-4 elections cycles. And the 1-2 elections was during reformasi era they usually elected the holdovers from the Suharto era.
Tell me what differences does it make if they are district / provincial elections. Its most likely these regions will elect Muslim governor before Jakarta does, because they don’t have run offs. Its very unlikely Jakarta will ever elected a non-Muslim governor, largely because of run off system. To be frank, Governors outside of Jakarta/Aceh/Yogyakarta don’t have as much funds/power as a bupati does.
As for those regions not electing a Muslim governor, all I know is they don’t do the following 1) Go running around the street in the hundred of thousands shouting kill the unbeliever 2) Don’t go on rampages / riots wanting to kill Muslims 3) Press for a blasphemy trial 4) Want to lynch said Muslim candidate 5) Threaten the female supporters of said Muslim candidate with rape. 6) Intimidating the candidate everywhere he goes. It seems that you are praising such tactics over the implicit and soft bigotry found in non-Muslim provinces.
As for the stupidity of the PDI-P.. Maybe you should run the PDI-P instead of Megawati. Most of us wouldn’t last a week in that position, so don’t pretend like most people in New Mandala that you can do better. The problem isn’t PDI-P, its the fact that the opposition is willing to use sectarianism because its easy. And its naive to think its restricted to Ahok. They went after Jokowi in 2014, and they are going after Kamil in 2018. And the reason they do this is because they have no or a very poor record (ie PKS in West Java). And why do you suppose that the PDI-P would have won if they put a Muslim candidate in Jakarta?
Yes Jokowi will lose if his opponent double down on the sectarian card, because that is the only way they can win. He has always been vulnerable to this issue since he ran for Jakarta Governor in 2012. Jokowi has never carried the majority of the Muslim vote in Jakarta/Indonesia. So what mindset can the PDI-P change so Jokowi isn’t vulnerable to those attacks? PDI-P can’t change over night, just as the PKS can’t all of a sudden embrace non-Muslims.
The strategy of accommodating Muslims sentiments might be obvious to you in the short run, but if you take a long run view its bad for secular parties like the PDi-P. They have been doing this in regional election since 2004. Want to get support of the PKS/PPP, a PDI-P Bupati makes Muslims female civil servants wear the hijab. Slowly over time more religion creeps in. Instead of being stupid as you seem to imply, maybe the national leadership in the PDI-P and other secular parties are finally realizing the monster they built on short term electoral expediency. Its most likely too late.
‘Bottom up’ campaigning failed Ahok, and it might fail Jokowi.
It is a doomed you do, doomed if you don’t situation when Ahok decided to get PDIP official backing rather than a independent candidate. The election committe had just issued a rule that make Ahok’s independent supporters life more difficult if they want to support Ahok by requiring them to be present at the election office during week days and within limited time frame to confirm their identity. The rule was a new one issued close to the deadline for candidate registration timeline. Who knows what other regulations the commission had and ready to be issued if Ahok went ahead as independent.
But I think mainly he lost because of two internal factors. First it seems that he didn’t have a strong campaign team. The do have passion but not strong campaign strategy and nor sophisticated PR. May be it is against their policy to pay good proffessionals despite their big funding from the people.
Second, he has a knack in sabotaging his own campaign. For example, saying something that is easily twisted against him and showing no respect to a prominent and very senior ulema in court (although Ahok could be right that he is a crook).
External factors include a proffessional, solid and fierce campaign team of his opponent and Almaidah 51.
How Myanmar’s ‘national races’ trumped citizenship
Any plans to translate the article and the special volume of the journal?
How Myanmar’s ‘national races’ trumped citizenship
Nick — Excellent and clear analysis of a murky cultural concept. It is implicated not only in the Rohingya case, but also in the designation and acceptance of “legitimized” ethnic groups and sub-groups. The conflicts over the census show how well that has worked out.
Jakarta: inequality and the poverty of elite pluralism
My comment was related to Bali, NTT, Sulut and Papua, their implicit sectarianism, refusal to elect Muslim Governors and the role of PDIP in maintaining such a status quo while challenging it in Jakarta. You have chosen to ignore it totally with a diversion to Kalimantan. If your response reflects the state of PDIP reflection on their recent failure, Widodo is a goner.
How Myanmar’s ‘national races’ trumped citizenship
Excellent analysis, but rather over generalizes “Rohingya advocates”- many are acutely aware that the notion of taingyintha is the root of the problem, and their advocacy reflects that; but, yes, some do also recapitulate the very terms of this deeply problematic (and leaky) notion in their demands for equal treatment qua taingyintha, notably the band of naive fools “leading” HaY/ARSA.
Last orders in Bangkok
Revised comment:
Bravo Claudio, nice article. BKK food vendors did not occur in a vacuum and do not exist in one either. They are a dependent variable to the Thai political economy which has focused on attracting privileged capital of investment, with the actual habitation is the city an afterthought. Food vendors make it possible for the lower level workers to live in the city. Their own living spaces lack kitchens (less then half of residences have kitchens) so the low cost food vendors offer are a necessity. Even though they are part of the informal economy theory are also an integral part of the formal economy.
In the past there has been a reasonable amount of tolerance for the vendors and I agree with John Walsh that it would be difficult for the BMA to crack down any harder than it is, as its likely to get push back (NYT article today on vending is SE Asia).
But it is upsetting the the dictatorship is applying their button down approach to solving social problems through enacting laws (such as forbidding riding in the back of pickup trucks) that go against the grain of social practice which has been customary for decades. Walsh said ” most of these laws are made by people who don’t have to go and get their own lunch”.
The NYTimes article quoted the number of legally registered vendors at 11,000 while neglecting to mention that the amount of unregistered vendors is very likely at 400,000. This is roughly 2% of the population, a figure not unlike other Southern mega-cities such as New Delhi and Jakarta. Vendors in Thailand are under counted and relatively voiceless. But they make Bangkok somewhat live able in spite of the messy, unruly, chaos that seems to part and parcel of their current food system. As Michael Wilson noted above food vending is a vehicle for upward mobility (it also serves a in a capacity for downward mobility- see articles about the Sandwich Man of Bangkok. Most vendors experience financial success and earn above the minimum wage. But its not easy to forget that this involves working on a noisy, polluted street for many hours a day.
Vendors are almost completely unorganized This puts them at a disadvantage in negotiating for their right to inhabit contested spaces in the urban environment.
But it is precisely this disorganization that makes them an independent variable who represent an ideological danger to the junta, I read Sopranzetti’s thesis on the win motorcycle system and it was very clear how this system is similar to vendor’s practice around Bangkok. In my own thesis “Occupying Bangkok: Mobile Vendors and Democratic Attitudes” I label this type of practice “conspicuously mutinous”.
Their practice of taking over areas in direct response to their own financial needs and desires of the inhabitants of the city while ignoring the directives of the BMA is a form of democratic movement similar to what is imagined by Gramsi and Lefebvre. I don’t know if KSC and the BMA have considered the fact that the Arab Spring was started by the suicide of an affronted food vendor. While at the same time I would like to remind NM readers that just last year an Italian researcher who was working on this very subject in Cairo was abducted and murdered.
Last orders in Bangkok
Bravo Claudio, nice article. BKK food vendors did not occur in a vacuum and do not exist in one either. They are a dependent variable to the Thai political economy which has focused on attracting privileged capital of investment, while the actual habitation is the city is an afterthought. Food vendors make it possible for the lower level workers to live in the city with its lack of kitchen facilities within living spaces (less then half of residences have kitchens) through the low cost food they offer thereby being an important cog within the formal economy.
In the past there has been a reasonable amount of tolerance for the vendors and I agree with John Walsh that it would be difficult for the BMA to crack down any harder than it is, as its likely to get push back (NYT article today on vending is SE Asia).
But its upsetting the the dictatorship is applying their button down approach to solving social problems through enacting laws (such as forbidding riding in the back of pickup trucks) that go against the grain of social practice which has been customary for decades. Walsh said ” most of these laws are made by people who don’t have to go and get their own lunch”.
I read Sopranzetti’s thesis on the win motorcycle system and it was very clear how this system is similar to vendor’s practice around Bangkok. In my own thesis I call this practice “a conspicuous mutiny”. The NYTimes article quoted the amount of legally registered vendors a 11,000 while neglecting to mention that the amount of unregisted vendors is very likely at 400,000. This is roughly 2% of the population, a figure not unlike other Southern mega-cities such as New Delhi and Jakarta.
Vendors in Thailand are under counted and relatively voiceless. But they make Bangkok somewhat live able in spite of the messy, unruly, chaos that seems to part and parcel of their current food system. As Michael Wilson noted above food vending is a vehicle for upward mobility (it also serves a in a capacity for downward mobility- see articles about the Sandwich Man of Bangkok. Most vendors experience financial success and earn above the minimum wage. At the same time it ain’t easy working on a noisy, polluted street for many hours a day.
Vendors are almost completely unorganized This really puts them at a disadvantage in negotiating for their right to inhabit advantageous commercial areas. But it is precisely this disorganization that makes them an independent variable who represent an ideological danger to the junta, Their practice of taking over areas in direct response to their own financial needs and desires of the inhabitants of the city while ignoring the directives of the BMA is a form of democracy movement similar to what was imagined by Gramsi.and Lefebvre.
Film review: By The Time It Gets Dark/ดาวคะนอง
Films cited above – and this commentary – are excellent exposes of the tidal wave building up, to wash upon Thai shores. For sure.
A crown prince and German affairs
Christine – though I have IMMENSE respect for you, because of your brave, long analysis : could you please explain to me what chance feminism has of changing anything in Thailand ? I think regional and elite divisions are much more likely to do that.
Film review: By The Time It Gets Dark/ดาวคะนอง
WHICH “wife” of General Sarit ? He was known for having more than a few ! A firm believer in / practitioner of, the Mia Yai Mia noi – major wife, minor wife system – was Sarit.
Kingdom of fear (and favour)
I believe the subject of the issue is Srirasmi. However, with regard to Sirindhorn, Andrew did suggest that she might flee to China AFTER the cremation of the Rama IX. After the dust has settled, so to speak,il it would appear.
Kingdom of fear (and favour)
Morgan – “Bumiphol weak and ineffectual” ?? You must be joking !! Bumiphol- with Generals Sarit and Prem – re-built Royal strength from weakness. And that is what his son has inherited. As the old saying goes: “greatness is built on the shoulders of giants”. Just ask those giants guarding the entrance to Bangkok palaces.
A crown prince and German affairs
At the bottom of a crocodile swamp? For evidence for all theories of the event.
Between inequality and identity in Jakarta polls
[…] *Tulisan ini telah diterjemahkan ke bahasa Inggris oleh Liam Gammon dan dimuat di New Mandala. […]
Last orders in Bangkok
Kaz, by your naive comments you don’t seem to live in Bkk.
An example “why rent a shophouse and declare your income”. The simple answer to this is money; poor people can not afford 50 – 100K monthly rent, plus two months deposit.
The “paying a little pin money to the local boss” is another false fact of yours. The vendors pay to the “tessakit” officers, municipal officers, just as other industries pay to the police ie transport drivers. They also pay to shop owners too, as Michael Wilson pointed out.
Kaz if you want a sterile and expensive ffod scene I suggest you move to Singapore.
Just ask anyone resident in Bkk how they love the convenience of street food and the ease of never being more than 50 metres from a snack or meal. Who would want to travel to a crowded “designated market area”?
A crown prince and German affairs
Jane Hansen – not only is”prostitution not legal in Thailand, and ….. that is good”. It also does not exist there. I know, because a Thai government minister- of Thaksin era – once famously pronounced: “there is NO prostitution in Pattaya” !!
‘Bottom up’ campaigning failed Ahok, and it might fail Jokowi.
If Ahok had went down the independent route, would he have gotten the support in the face of withering attacks for Islamic hardliners? In a normal campaign it would have been effective. But in a dirty campaign would volunteers have been effective? Would there have been clashes between volunteers and Islamic hardliners?
And you think Anies won’t be making a lot of compromises and breaking promises as Governor of Jakarta?
Up until now Gerindra has been able to run on sectarianism and outrageous promises, once they have a record in which their opponents can attack them with, then it will become less effective.
‘Bottom up’ campaigning failed Ahok, and it might fail Jokowi.
Like Bill Clinton said: “it’s all about the economy”