Do you think we are surprised by this? Are we supposed to think that the same wouldn’t/couldn’t be said of any Thai primeminister or, for that matter, any Thai person in a position of significant power in Thailand, were all subject to the same scrutiny that Thaksin is at the moment?
For the record I am reasonably cautious of any institution that can, through law, censor criticism to the degree that the institution of the Thai monarchy can. Anti-Thai monarchy I am not but nor am I ingnorant of some of its less glorious moments in history (see 1976 coup, again). and how often times the world seems to be happier to embrace “the emperor’s new clothes” as failed project after failed project is called a success such as environmental ventures and agricultural projects that HMK has been involved in… I think we all know the success and failures of the Doi Tung opium erradication/crop substitution project and the numerous dams around the country for example, as well as the decades of monoculturural re-aforestation that occurred until the nineties. This one in Narathiwat is just one in a lolng line of many.
Its unfortunate that you are angry and certainly not *my* intent to make you so. Perhaps if you let go of the Tolkien-esque sentiment that has you seeing shadows of dark lords behind every free thought that is posted here and if you were to take a few steps back and look at what is being said you might be able to differentiate between a critique of an ideology and an alliance with Thaksin. I for one am glad Thaksin is gone, as are many other people I am sure, this doesn’t detract from the fact how he went is somewhat problematic and certainly linked to the monarchy.
You are arguing here that the monarchy should be treated as sacrosanct even when it has played its cards and once again allied with a military Junta (see 1976 and the results of the last monarchical alliance with the military in a coup situation). If that works for you then so be it but is it really necessary to bully us with your rampant (and somewhat fantastical) monarchist view of the world. Why not try to contribute something a little more meaningful to the forum and explain for example how you see the sufficiency economy as not perpetuating the status quo for the poor?; and how you see no pattern of this in the past to present in the face of ongoing poverty in the northeast?; and how this is so closely linked to the earlier rice tax and that “just enough” economy as it should be called resonates so closely with the policies of Phibun and Sarit etc.? it does seem to me that there is a trend here. I would really be interested in how you see the situation (less the dark lord and his shadows, of course) and how you account for these facts..
Nobody cared for Thaksin’s resignation letter.
But his assets declaration sheets, that would be certainly interesting to the asset/corruption commissions, right?
Interesting post. I came across this blog by accident, but it was a good accident. I have now bookmarked your blog for future use. Best wishes. Isla Fisher….
I did pick peg you all as ‘malicious’ anti-Thai monarchy recruited by Thaksin to nitpick and quibble on Thailand’s most revered institution, HMK.
Why did it take you all so long to show your ugly faces?
By the way you better rush out all your materials because your paymaster Thaksin would soon be running out dirty cash to pay you all. The asset/corruption commissions are working double-time and guess what, each day about a dozen mega-corruption by Thaksin & Gang just kept popping up!
Come on boys . . . rush your printing presses. Forget about scholarly research and all that bull . . . your high-falutin style will impress no one!
Anon – You aspire to be ‘Kingly’ like Thaksin who was from the gutter bred. Check where your heart is before you question Thailand’s King’s motivations. Don’t overpresume on anything you do not comprehend. Pass on the same message to Andrew Walker who is NOT a writer nor a columnist, but a blovatiating rumor-monger.
The King’s “success” in draining the Bachoh peat forests (paa phru) in Narathiwat did initially reduce the acidity of the soil and reduce flooding.
But after a couple of years, acidity actually increased and surrounding lands became unsuitable for cultivation or support of villagers. Flooding also increased.
Drainage dried out the upper layer of peat soil during the dry season and made the land much more susceptible to fires. The soil became highly compacted and eroded easily, allowing the pyrite layer that is underneath the top layer of soil to be exposed to the air. Oxidation turned this into ferrous sulphate and released strong sulphuric acid. Thus, during the rainy season, the lands that the drainage canals passed through also became acidic, ruining it. In addition, compactation of peat layer soil actually *increased* flood levels near the drained areas. For full details, read the UN Environmental Program’s 1988 report on Sustainable Development of Natural Resources.
In Thailand, the word responsibility (“rab phid chob”) literally means “accept failure and favor”. Despite his good intentions, the King should take full responsibility for the destruction of the peat forest and the livelihood of the people of Narathiwat.
But I do challenge your presumption that a “a pattern of keeping people poor already exists in practice” which none of you have substantiated in any manner. If your objective is to raise the consciousness of the Thai people that their poor are being neglected by this Sufficiency Economy you authoratively brand as dubious or ‘patently absurd’, you are doing it in a malicious manner which I perceive was deliberate.
I am angry at you people. I sense Thaksin’s shadows behind your every article, vengeful and spiteful, as norm for an arrogant and extrajudicial man brought down from his mighty high. Let your Andrew Walker defend his ‘authorative’ conclusion that Thailand’s Sufficiency Economy will keep our poor poor or poorer. Then we can have a more interesting debate on this very subject that appear to be dear to all your hearts.
But of course you were bullshitting YKMasada. I was aware that the 1992 unsuccessful was bloody, so too was the 1976 democracy uprising against Thanom. But here are your exact authoratative words YKMasada:
“…history is my guide. There has not been a single coup in modern Thai history that was not followed or preceded by bloodshed. ”
Sorry I was away for so long as to miss all the action above, temporarily preoccupied. Vichai, missing posts aside (and at the risk of unleashing a barrage of more) if I might offer an explanation in Andrew’s absence (for no other reason than I did provoke your most recent string of responses with my question to you)…What I and maybe Andrew and others are doing when we say or intimate that the sufficiency economy is directed at keeping people poor is to make a critical appraisal of the stated intention of the idea with some of the emperical evidence discernable to us, in my case the history of the rice tax and multitude of programmes aimed at taking women out of the sex work industry to where they can make a small to large fortune to return to the village under the auspices of a “ronarong” to be “opromed” into a basket weaver or silk producer…the latter sharing the same fate as hill tribe cash crops where neither the market nor the infrastructure exists to facilitate any real sale of said goods…aka kept poor…
In an earlier post Andrew provided us with the juxtaposition of the sufficiency economy ideology with the incredible wealth of the monarchy, its architect (from a Thai source) that raises some questions regarding just who exactly is the sufficiency economy for and why, the sufficiency economy idea not providing any real direction to those with a virtual monopoly on Thailand’s wealth….
So where a pattern of keeping people poor already exists inpractice and an ideology emerges from a wealthy and political influential person urging people to make do with what they have for the national good et al. it is not unreasonable to ask a few questions.
Nothing sinister or arcane in all this and certainly not an outrageous notion. Just your standard intellectual engagement with issues that are obviously of interest to a number (not all) of us. Andrew has not been malicious, on the contray in light of some of the outrageous accusations you have leveled at him I think he has been polite and restrained.
The great thing about the King’s Sufficiency Economy is that it is “fool proof.”
If the policy is successful, that is because of the King’s genius.
If the policy is a failure, that is because either 1) Thaksin is trying to sabotage the policy, or 2) the government is trying hard enough, or 3) the Thai people aren’t diligent enough or humble enough.
My sources for that ideological rubbish were direct quotes from speeches by the King. And yes, I agree that it is intellectual rubbish. But that’s why I’m posting under “Anon.”
Since he wished to step down from his pedestal and lead this coup, then he should be ready to face the criticism of the people.
Vichai, I’m not bullshitting. Gulfnews.com is wrong.
Read my post. A year after the 1991 coup, there was widespread killing in the streets and torturing of prisoners. The 1st Young Turk coup failed and led directly to the 2nd Young Turk coup, which caused violent fighting in the streets between rebel and government factions. The coup of1976 happened on the evening of the 6 October 1976 massacres. The list of coups that have ended in bloodshed goes on and on and on and on……
anonymous, the list of 17 coups probably includes the unsuccessful ones. The Boworadej Rebellion of 1934, when King Prajadhipok’s forces tried to overthrow the young government during the middle of elections. Resulted in aerial bombing of Bangkok and large scale fighting in several provinces. The Songsuradet Rebellion. Numerous coups in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s. Young Turk 1 and Young Turk 2.
If you can’t count Anon, I can’t either. But some reported 18, others 19. Which I interpret to mean that there were 17 SUCCESSUL Thai coups, and 2 not.
Mr. Andrew Walker will you please educate this forum from you got your interpretation that Thailand’s Sufficiency Economy was designed to keep the poor … poor?
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Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
Do you think we are surprised by this? Are we supposed to think that the same wouldn’t/couldn’t be said of any Thai primeminister or, for that matter, any Thai person in a position of significant power in Thailand, were all subject to the same scrutiny that Thaksin is at the moment?
For the record I am reasonably cautious of any institution that can, through law, censor criticism to the degree that the institution of the Thai monarchy can. Anti-Thai monarchy I am not but nor am I ingnorant of some of its less glorious moments in history (see 1976 coup, again). and how often times the world seems to be happier to embrace “the emperor’s new clothes” as failed project after failed project is called a success such as environmental ventures and agricultural projects that HMK has been involved in… I think we all know the success and failures of the Doi Tung opium erradication/crop substitution project and the numerous dams around the country for example, as well as the decades of monoculturural re-aforestation that occurred until the nineties. This one in Narathiwat is just one in a lolng line of many.
Sufficiency and the junta
Its unfortunate that you are angry and certainly not *my* intent to make you so. Perhaps if you let go of the Tolkien-esque sentiment that has you seeing shadows of dark lords behind every free thought that is posted here and if you were to take a few steps back and look at what is being said you might be able to differentiate between a critique of an ideology and an alliance with Thaksin. I for one am glad Thaksin is gone, as are many other people I am sure, this doesn’t detract from the fact how he went is somewhat problematic and certainly linked to the monarchy.
You are arguing here that the monarchy should be treated as sacrosanct even when it has played its cards and once again allied with a military Junta (see 1976 and the results of the last monarchical alliance with the military in a coup situation). If that works for you then so be it but is it really necessary to bully us with your rampant (and somewhat fantastical) monarchist view of the world. Why not try to contribute something a little more meaningful to the forum and explain for example how you see the sufficiency economy as not perpetuating the status quo for the poor?; and how you see no pattern of this in the past to present in the face of ongoing poverty in the northeast?; and how this is so closely linked to the earlier rice tax and that “just enough” economy as it should be called resonates so closely with the policies of Phibun and Sarit etc.? it does seem to me that there is a trend here. I would really be interested in how you see the situation (less the dark lord and his shadows, of course) and how you account for these facts..
Thaksin’s resignation letter
Nobody cared for Thaksin’s resignation letter.
But his assets declaration sheets, that would be certainly interesting to the asset/corruption commissions, right?
I wonder if Thaksin met the submission deadline?
Yellow Fever
air nui…
Interesting post. I came across this blog by accident, but it was a good accident. I have now bookmarked your blog for future use. Best wishes. Isla Fisher….
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
I did pick peg you all as ‘malicious’ anti-Thai monarchy recruited by Thaksin to nitpick and quibble on Thailand’s most revered institution, HMK.
Why did it take you all so long to show your ugly faces?
By the way you better rush out all your materials because your paymaster Thaksin would soon be running out dirty cash to pay you all. The asset/corruption commissions are working double-time and guess what, each day about a dozen mega-corruption by Thaksin & Gang just kept popping up!
Come on boys . . . rush your printing presses. Forget about scholarly research and all that bull . . . your high-falutin style will impress no one!
Sufficiency democracy
Anon – You aspire to be ‘Kingly’ like Thaksin who was from the gutter bred. Check where your heart is before you question Thailand’s King’s motivations. Don’t overpresume on anything you do not comprehend. Pass on the same message to Andrew Walker who is NOT a writer nor a columnist, but a blovatiating rumor-monger.
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
The King’s “success” in draining the Bachoh peat forests (paa phru) in Narathiwat did initially reduce the acidity of the soil and reduce flooding.
But after a couple of years, acidity actually increased and surrounding lands became unsuitable for cultivation or support of villagers. Flooding also increased.
Drainage dried out the upper layer of peat soil during the dry season and made the land much more susceptible to fires. The soil became highly compacted and eroded easily, allowing the pyrite layer that is underneath the top layer of soil to be exposed to the air. Oxidation turned this into ferrous sulphate and released strong sulphuric acid. Thus, during the rainy season, the lands that the drainage canals passed through also became acidic, ruining it. In addition, compactation of peat layer soil actually *increased* flood levels near the drained areas. For full details, read the UN Environmental Program’s 1988 report on Sustainable Development of Natural Resources.
In Thailand, the word responsibility (“rab phid chob”) literally means “accept failure and favor”. Despite his good intentions, the King should take full responsibility for the destruction of the peat forest and the livelihood of the people of Narathiwat.
Self-sufficient junta
Who cares if it was a military or royalist coup?
The average Thaksin voter would respect the coup even more if the king wanted it, so what’s the big problem?
Please don’t reply with nonsense about ‘democracy’ etc
Sufficiency democracy
Most people seem to over analyse what the King is on about.
I think the ‘having enough to live on and to live for’ clarification shows where his motivation is.
Basically it is an anti greed philosophy … very idealistic, but if it was practiced throughtout the world I’m sure the world would be a better place.
Sufficiency and the junta
But I do challenge your presumption that a “a pattern of keeping people poor already exists in practice” which none of you have substantiated in any manner. If your objective is to raise the consciousness of the Thai people that their poor are being neglected by this Sufficiency Economy you authoratively brand as dubious or ‘patently absurd’, you are doing it in a malicious manner which I perceive was deliberate.
I am angry at you people. I sense Thaksin’s shadows behind your every article, vengeful and spiteful, as norm for an arrogant and extrajudicial man brought down from his mighty high. Let your Andrew Walker defend his ‘authorative’ conclusion that Thailand’s Sufficiency Economy will keep our poor poor or poorer. Then we can have a more interesting debate on this very subject that appear to be dear to all your hearts.
Self-sufficient junta
But of course you were bullshitting YKMasada. I was aware that the 1992 unsuccessful was bloody, so too was the 1976 democracy uprising against Thanom. But here are your exact authoratative words YKMasada:
“…history is my guide. There has not been a single coup in modern Thai history that was not followed or preceded by bloodshed. ”
you said ‘every’.
Self-sufficient junta
Did anyone catch the news yesterday or the day before about the taxi driver who crashed his taxi into a tank in protest of the coup?
Sufficiency and the junta
Sorry I was away for so long as to miss all the action above, temporarily preoccupied. Vichai, missing posts aside (and at the risk of unleashing a barrage of more) if I might offer an explanation in Andrew’s absence (for no other reason than I did provoke your most recent string of responses with my question to you)…What I and maybe Andrew and others are doing when we say or intimate that the sufficiency economy is directed at keeping people poor is to make a critical appraisal of the stated intention of the idea with some of the emperical evidence discernable to us, in my case the history of the rice tax and multitude of programmes aimed at taking women out of the sex work industry to where they can make a small to large fortune to return to the village under the auspices of a “ronarong” to be “opromed” into a basket weaver or silk producer…the latter sharing the same fate as hill tribe cash crops where neither the market nor the infrastructure exists to facilitate any real sale of said goods…aka kept poor…
In an earlier post Andrew provided us with the juxtaposition of the sufficiency economy ideology with the incredible wealth of the monarchy, its architect (from a Thai source) that raises some questions regarding just who exactly is the sufficiency economy for and why, the sufficiency economy idea not providing any real direction to those with a virtual monopoly on Thailand’s wealth….
So where a pattern of keeping people poor already exists inpractice and an ideology emerges from a wealthy and political influential person urging people to make do with what they have for the national good et al. it is not unreasonable to ask a few questions.
Nothing sinister or arcane in all this and certainly not an outrageous notion. Just your standard intellectual engagement with issues that are obviously of interest to a number (not all) of us. Andrew has not been malicious, on the contray in light of some of the outrageous accusations you have leveled at him I think he has been polite and restrained.
Surakiart bows out of race for UN gig
He wasted a lot of Thai taxpayers’ money on this race. Even the Thais were rooting against him . . imagine that!
Counter-terrorist, pro-junta
What a silly nation Australia!
Common sense should be their guide and there would be less confusion. And an EDITOR at that . . . my my! what is the free world now going through.
Sufficiency and the junta
The great thing about the King’s Sufficiency Economy is that it is “fool proof.”
If the policy is successful, that is because of the King’s genius.
If the policy is a failure, that is because either 1) Thaksin is trying to sabotage the policy, or 2) the government is trying hard enough, or 3) the Thai people aren’t diligent enough or humble enough.
Sufficiency and superfluity
Sorry, but the Thaksin era is over. You should stop talking about how bad Thaksin was and start talking about how bad the current government is.
Sufficiency democracy
My sources for that ideological rubbish were direct quotes from speeches by the King. And yes, I agree that it is intellectual rubbish. But that’s why I’m posting under “Anon.”
Since he wished to step down from his pedestal and lead this coup, then he should be ready to face the criticism of the people.
Self-sufficient junta
Vichai, I’m not bullshitting. Gulfnews.com is wrong.
Read my post. A year after the 1991 coup, there was widespread killing in the streets and torturing of prisoners. The 1st Young Turk coup failed and led directly to the 2nd Young Turk coup, which caused violent fighting in the streets between rebel and government factions. The coup of1976 happened on the evening of the 6 October 1976 massacres. The list of coups that have ended in bloodshed goes on and on and on and on……
anonymous, the list of 17 coups probably includes the unsuccessful ones. The Boworadej Rebellion of 1934, when King Prajadhipok’s forces tried to overthrow the young government during the middle of elections. Resulted in aerial bombing of Bangkok and large scale fighting in several provinces. The Songsuradet Rebellion. Numerous coups in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s. Young Turk 1 and Young Turk 2.
Sufficiency and the junta
If you can’t count Anon, I can’t either. But some reported 18, others 19. Which I interpret to mean that there were 17 SUCCESSUL Thai coups, and 2 not.
Mr. Andrew Walker will you please educate this forum from you got your interpretation that Thailand’s Sufficiency Economy was designed to keep the poor … poor?