The question:
I will repeat my question from #30 & #33 above:
Please suggest a better system than what I call the ‘white knight’ system that is currently in place.
To be relevant please point to an example in the region, not a European or US model.
I have asked a similar question before on this site, bet I never get a direct response.
I’ve had this discussion with Nirut before – I’m lazy and I just want concise conclusions/reasons without having to wade through everything – there are no end of reviews of the book available and most get to the crux of the matter.
Also I am practicing my own sufficiency economy, and have no wish to reward Mr Handley for his effort.
Did you read the review on Worldpress – I don’t think even Republican could have been any more scathing of the king or the palace.
I’m all for having the book published in thai and made available in Thailand.
Thai’s are well aware of the rumours surrounding the royal family so there would be nothing new there.
I would prefer if the supporters of the palace openly addressed the main theory of the book, gave their point of view on the matters raised, and then left it up to the reader to judge the merits of the argument for themselves.
What I find a little disappointing is the promotion of the book and its main theory as factual, particularly on this ‘academic’ site.
Anyway, there is already plenty of discussion on the book and it’s theory on various Thai forums and blogs, and lese majeste laws do not seem to be holding back the comments.
I have also seen a ‘theory’ that Handley was paid handsomely by a certain (former) influential person in Thailand to produce his work – maybe that payment would be sufficient compensation for not being able to front up in Thailand ever again. Mind you, it’s only a rumour.
The following is from the review of the book on: http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/2514.cfm
“Handley concludes that Bhumibol essentially impedes Thailand’s transition from kingdom to a modern nation-state. He primes the public to taint democracy, secular laws, and constitutions so that the alternative of “dhammocracy” is the only option left. He obstructs political reform by nurturing mass cynicism for elected authorities and contributes to rising criminality by undermining the rule of law. With an uncertain dynastic succession in the prospects, the 79-year-old patriarch risks plunging the country into chronic instability once he is no longer at the helm. Such is the legacy of this cold-blooded Chakri king who always puts himself above the interests of his people.”
I will repeat my question from #30 above:
Please suggest a better system than what I call the ‘white knight’ system that is currently in place.
To be relevant please point to an example in the region, not a European or US model.
I have asked a similar question before on this site, bet I never get a direct response.
Here is an extract from a review of the book I found on Amazon.com:
“With regards to the major theme, that the king is a proponent of dhammocracy over democracy, I say “so what”? Mr. Handley’s other poorly hidden bias was that the reader was to accept that U.S. democracy is inherently better (better for the U.S. but not necessarily for Thailand, as a friend of mine used to say and as we are learning in the MiddleEast now) for all and that for some unexplained reason, the king’s support for dhammocracy is bad.”
I am from the Society for Threatened Peoples in Germany, Asia Desk. We are an International Human Rights Organisation (NGO) and have consultative status with the ECOSOC of the United Nations and participatory status with the Council of Europe. For almost 40 years we have been campaigning against human rights violations and lobbying for the rights of ethnic and religious minorities world-wide.
I am currently working on the issue of the Hmong in Thailand and Laos. During my research I found this blog entry. I find it extremely interesting and would thus like to get in touch with you. Can you maybe send me an email so that we don’t need to discuss this via blog comments?
The book hasn’t arrived in Thailand yet, but a friend from the US showed me a copy last night. Hopefully, the 12 chapters that address that address pre-modern Burma will get some people interested in the dimensions of the culture and history that are usually ignored, like literature, art, and Buddhism. It’s tragic when it takes warfare and violence to get people interested in another culture, e.g. Iraq and the Middle East.
Someone jokingly suggested this as a winning business idea. In the US, you have the army-navy football game and Stanford versus Berkeley, sales of sweatshirts, hats, dolls with little bobbing heads, are brisk.
During the Thaksin administration everywhere you turned, police. Billionaire civil servant and police colonel Thaksin. Election commissioner, police general. Deputy prime minister, police general. Mysterious super-powerful board member of the university I worked at, police general.
Personally, I\’d rather have a humbled army, that acts to do honour to the king, as a **permanent prime minister** than a government saturated by the omnipresent, omniscient police force that I have observed, from a distance, in one instance, pushing around and trying to extort baht 1.5 million from a European one day, only to have that European hang himself in his cell the next day, all of which the print media blithely ignored, so one could say it was invisible, with almost zero transparency, like so many other incidents, that have made my skin crawl, observing from a distance, of course. They can even tell people exactly how much money they have in their bank account. I\’ll never forget when the family of the female Akha id card advocate starting getting harassed by the police. Perhaps one of her family was involved in drugs in some way, but surely she sure wasn\’t. Then there is the story of how Thaksin sicked the police on his American business partner. Then there was that German who I taught at a university in South Korea with, whose business partner absconded with everything, in collusion with the police. They harassed my own family (who fastidiously follows every letter of the law) at a checkpoint once, even though we had all our papers in perfect order, they objected that the seal was too light and wanted to pull us off the bus, apparently to instill fear and extort money. I stood defiantly in front of the bus when the driver wanted to leave us behind to those vultures, and when I arrived, lodged formal complaints with the company and the provincial police. I accompanied mostly senior citizen farmers to a wedding party in Bangkok once, we were all hauled out of the van, car sick the police accused us of being Yah Baa. Despite wanting to laugh at the absurdity of this casual accusation that could land one in jail for years if it was true, we had to humbly wai and deprecate ourselves in front of them. All this and yet running red lights and hit and run are still so common. More police generals would no doubt solve all the problems.
Police power is more insidious, and people are much more willing to dismiss and ignore the rantings of obviously guilty criminals. Check out Amnesty international’s yearly reports. At least when the military violates human rights, it makes all the major international newspapers. I lived in Burma two years where there are hardly any police to be found. Leave the house, and presto, burglary. No, having expressed my opinion on this subject, I can only pray that I don’t end up in jail. Even though I work for a newspaper would it even make it into the newspaper if what happened to that poor European I mentioned above, happened to me?
If someone wants to write a stylishly postmodern dissertation, pray dig a little deeper and unearth some real victims of \”law enforcement\” and expend the effort to find them rather than deconstructing them.
What has Paul Handley’s books have to do with scrapping of lese majeste.
To scrap lese majeste requires specific change in the Thai Constitution . . .and only the NPA can do that. Perhaps Patiwat, a former Palang Dharma if I recall correctly, can reignite his friendship with Chamlong Srimuang and ask Chamlong to spearhead the scrapping of lese majeste.
But surely Paul Handley can publish his book in the internet for FREE ACCESS. I won’t read his book any other way and I may not even read it even given free access. Why? Andrew Walker recommends the book highly, and, Republican too. I just don’t like the reading materials these two think intellectually stimulating . . .
One small difference: The King Never Smiles is banned in Thailand whereas TIME has a very nice circulation thank you very much – and with articles like that one one hardly needs to ask why.
Well not just one difference. You guys may see a couple of paragraphs in a TIME magazine article as intellectually superior to a 500 page book researched by a journalist who has lived in the country for the best part of two decades, but no, I’m afraid don’t.
But don’t take my word for it, let’s allow the Thai people to decide. Now that Mr. Vichai has agreed to help us abolish lese majese perhaps we can ask him to use his influence to publiize Handley’s book in Thailand as a test case, so that Thai people will be able to choose for themselves whether to believe it or not. I mean, if he is serious about wanting to abolish lese majeste.
I’ll have a guess:
Could it have been a sense of duty to the country once Sonthi B explained the mess?
or
Could it have been a sense of duty to Sonthi B after he pleaded to him that he was the best man for the job?
Andrew, you may be surprised, but there are some people that have a sense of duty, and take on positions of power for reaons other than feathering their own nest.
To read an actual transcript from such a “seminar” would truly be interesting. I wonder whether it is rather a “lecture” or whether allowed student interaction is more along the lines of a “group confessional.” I also wonder how students are assessed, what happens when you fail, and whether you can drop the class.
Patiwat, maybe you are right. I wasn’t at the seminar so I don’t know the context of the comment. Politically of course they are on the same wavelength. But how are you going to silence the Chlear academics by giving the book such faint praise in public as “not academic but worth listening to”. Isn’t that giving the Chlears an instant point on which to criticize the book? You know that in the Thai intellectual culture if you say something is not “academic” (ie. р╕зр╕┤р╕Кр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г) then (rightly or wrongly) that is an instant attack on its credibilty. My feeling is that the Chlears are never going to accept such a book, whether academic or not. Why help them by casting doubt on its academic integrity?
To be honest, I have been surprised by the rather lukewarm reception this book has been publicly received by many academics, in reviews that have been published on this website as well as elsewhere. The guy has basically sentenced himself to exile from Thailand for the forseeable future, presumably earned the hatred of a large proportion of his Thai friends and colleagues, and the people who should be most grateful for such a book can’t seem to bring themselves to give the book its due. I can’t help feeling that at least part of it is due to academic snobbery towards journalists’ work, which is a pity, because it gets in the way of what should be a common cause.
1) Republican: As I recall, Thongchai did not provide any extensive explanation for his change of title. As you know, people do alter the advertised titles of presentations at conferences, lectures and seminars quite frequently. I think the new title was just an attempt to pose a question that clarified his argument and thinking. He has been giving a few similiar talks – perhaps the feedback he received is that this title “works” better or is more understandable. Sorry, I’m just not sure, but it is a good question.
2) Polo: Towards the end of his talk, and as Thongchai developed his conclusion “based on rumours”, he was keen to show that he sees the “Kingmakers” as the driving force behind recent events. He didn’t want to imply that this meant the factions specifically (or solely) backed any one future King or Queen. Instead, they were jostling for the right to “make” the next monarch – whoever it may be. That was one key element of the “rumour” that he outlined. He sees the longer duration of Thai history as involving key groups of “Kingmakers” and insists that, in the present, we should not overlook this aspect of Thai political culture.
Thanks for all of your comments. If further matters require clarification or explanation I may make a follow-up post and include the rest of the photos that I snapped on that evening.
‘No matter how much perfect foresight a leader has, he has to listen to the people, adjust his priorities to reflect popular concerns, and play by the rules.’
patiwat: Whatever happened to leading?
Are you saying that truly great people/statesmen are unelectable in modern democracies?
Actually, I think I already know the answer.
Yes – I know Prem was never elected.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Against the grain?
The question:
I will repeat my question from #30 & #33 above:
Please suggest a better system than what I call the ‘white knight’ system that is currently in place.
To be relevant please point to an example in the region, not a European or US model.
I have asked a similar question before on this site, bet I never get a direct response.
Against the grain?
Andrew: You, too, are welcome to respond to my question.
After all it is only a hobby to me – you have my email.
Against the grain?
Are you going to send me a copy, Andrew?
I’ve had this discussion with Nirut before – I’m lazy and I just want concise conclusions/reasons without having to wade through everything – there are no end of reviews of the book available and most get to the crux of the matter.
Also I am practicing my own sufficiency economy, and have no wish to reward Mr Handley for his effort.
Did you read the review on Worldpress – I don’t think even Republican could have been any more scathing of the king or the palace.
Surayud did not support coup!
I have a hard time believing Surayud.
Sonthi is Surayud’s boy, and Surayud is Prem’s boy. Is he really telling us that Sonthi (and presumably Prem) were behind the coup, but he wasn’t?
Siam Rumoured: the Thongchai lecture in London
Jon: I want to commend you on another excellent post.
Against the grain?
Why not just read the book!
Against the grain?
In case it is not clear, my last comment was in response to Republican, not Vichai.
Against the grain?
Have you got shares in the books publisher?
I’m all for having the book published in thai and made available in Thailand.
Thai’s are well aware of the rumours surrounding the royal family so there would be nothing new there.
I would prefer if the supporters of the palace openly addressed the main theory of the book, gave their point of view on the matters raised, and then left it up to the reader to judge the merits of the argument for themselves.
What I find a little disappointing is the promotion of the book and its main theory as factual, particularly on this ‘academic’ site.
Anyway, there is already plenty of discussion on the book and it’s theory on various Thai forums and blogs, and lese majeste laws do not seem to be holding back the comments.
I have also seen a ‘theory’ that Handley was paid handsomely by a certain (former) influential person in Thailand to produce his work – maybe that payment would be sufficient compensation for not being able to front up in Thailand ever again. Mind you, it’s only a rumour.
The following is from the review of the book on:
http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/2514.cfm
“Handley concludes that Bhumibol essentially impedes Thailand’s transition from kingdom to a modern nation-state. He primes the public to taint democracy, secular laws, and constitutions so that the alternative of “dhammocracy” is the only option left. He obstructs political reform by nurturing mass cynicism for elected authorities and contributes to rising criminality by undermining the rule of law. With an uncertain dynastic succession in the prospects, the 79-year-old patriarch risks plunging the country into chronic instability once he is no longer at the helm. Such is the legacy of this cold-blooded Chakri king who always puts himself above the interests of his people.”
I will repeat my question from #30 above:
Please suggest a better system than what I call the ‘white knight’ system that is currently in place.
To be relevant please point to an example in the region, not a European or US model.
I have asked a similar question before on this site, bet I never get a direct response.
Here is an extract from a review of the book I found on Amazon.com:
“With regards to the major theme, that the king is a proponent of dhammocracy over democracy, I say “so what”? Mr. Handley’s other poorly hidden bias was that the reader was to accept that U.S. democracy is inherently better (better for the U.S. but not necessarily for Thailand, as a friend of mine used to say and as we are learning in the MiddleEast now) for all and that for some unexplained reason, the king’s support for dhammocracy is bad.”
Welcome to Vieng Say
Hi Holly High,
I am from the Society for Threatened Peoples in Germany, Asia Desk. We are an International Human Rights Organisation (NGO) and have consultative status with the ECOSOC of the United Nations and participatory status with the Council of Europe. For almost 40 years we have been campaigning against human rights violations and lobbying for the rights of ethnic and religious minorities world-wide.
I am currently working on the issue of the Hmong in Thailand and Laos. During my research I found this blog entry. I find it extremely interesting and would thus like to get in touch with you. Can you maybe send me an email so that we don’t need to discuss this via blog comments?
Thanks a lot!!!
Katja
New book by Thant Myint-U
The book hasn’t arrived in Thailand yet, but a friend from the US showed me a copy last night. Hopefully, the 12 chapters that address that address pre-modern Burma will get some people interested in the dimensions of the culture and history that are usually ignored, like literature, art, and Buddhism. It’s tragic when it takes warfare and violence to get people interested in another culture, e.g. Iraq and the Middle East.
Siam Rumoured: the Thongchai lecture in London
Police versus Army sweatshirts for the big game.
Someone jokingly suggested this as a winning business idea. In the US, you have the army-navy football game and Stanford versus Berkeley, sales of sweatshirts, hats, dolls with little bobbing heads, are brisk.
During the Thaksin administration everywhere you turned, police. Billionaire civil servant and police colonel Thaksin. Election commissioner, police general. Deputy prime minister, police general. Mysterious super-powerful board member of the university I worked at, police general.
Personally, I\’d rather have a humbled army, that acts to do honour to the king, as a **permanent prime minister** than a government saturated by the omnipresent, omniscient police force that I have observed, from a distance, in one instance, pushing around and trying to extort baht 1.5 million from a European one day, only to have that European hang himself in his cell the next day, all of which the print media blithely ignored, so one could say it was invisible, with almost zero transparency, like so many other incidents, that have made my skin crawl, observing from a distance, of course. They can even tell people exactly how much money they have in their bank account. I\’ll never forget when the family of the female Akha id card advocate starting getting harassed by the police. Perhaps one of her family was involved in drugs in some way, but surely she sure wasn\’t. Then there is the story of how Thaksin sicked the police on his American business partner. Then there was that German who I taught at a university in South Korea with, whose business partner absconded with everything, in collusion with the police. They harassed my own family (who fastidiously follows every letter of the law) at a checkpoint once, even though we had all our papers in perfect order, they objected that the seal was too light and wanted to pull us off the bus, apparently to instill fear and extort money. I stood defiantly in front of the bus when the driver wanted to leave us behind to those vultures, and when I arrived, lodged formal complaints with the company and the provincial police. I accompanied mostly senior citizen farmers to a wedding party in Bangkok once, we were all hauled out of the van, car sick the police accused us of being Yah Baa. Despite wanting to laugh at the absurdity of this casual accusation that could land one in jail for years if it was true, we had to humbly wai and deprecate ourselves in front of them. All this and yet running red lights and hit and run are still so common. More police generals would no doubt solve all the problems.
Police power is more insidious, and people are much more willing to dismiss and ignore the rantings of obviously guilty criminals. Check out Amnesty international’s yearly reports. At least when the military violates human rights, it makes all the major international newspapers. I lived in Burma two years where there are hardly any police to be found. Leave the house, and presto, burglary. No, having expressed my opinion on this subject, I can only pray that I don’t end up in jail. Even though I work for a newspaper would it even make it into the newspaper if what happened to that poor European I mentioned above, happened to me?
If someone wants to write a stylishly postmodern dissertation, pray dig a little deeper and unearth some real victims of \”law enforcement\” and expend the effort to find them rather than deconstructing them.
Against the grain?
What has Paul Handley’s books have to do with scrapping of lese majeste.
To scrap lese majeste requires specific change in the Thai Constitution . . .and only the NPA can do that. Perhaps Patiwat, a former Palang Dharma if I recall correctly, can reignite his friendship with Chamlong Srimuang and ask Chamlong to spearhead the scrapping of lese majeste.
But surely Paul Handley can publish his book in the internet for FREE ACCESS. I won’t read his book any other way and I may not even read it even given free access. Why? Andrew Walker recommends the book highly, and, Republican too. I just don’t like the reading materials these two think intellectually stimulating . . .
Against the grain?
One small difference: The King Never Smiles is banned in Thailand whereas TIME has a very nice circulation thank you very much – and with articles like that one one hardly needs to ask why.
Well not just one difference. You guys may see a couple of paragraphs in a TIME magazine article as intellectually superior to a 500 page book researched by a journalist who has lived in the country for the best part of two decades, but no, I’m afraid don’t.
But don’t take my word for it, let’s allow the Thai people to decide. Now that Mr. Vichai has agreed to help us abolish lese majese perhaps we can ask him to use his influence to publiize Handley’s book in Thailand as a test case, so that Thai people will be able to choose for themselves whether to believe it or not. I mean, if he is serious about wanting to abolish lese majeste.
Surayud did not support coup!
‘Obliged to accept? Why?’
I’ll have a guess:
Could it have been a sense of duty to the country once Sonthi B explained the mess?
or
Could it have been a sense of duty to Sonthi B after he pleaded to him that he was the best man for the job?
Andrew, you may be surprised, but there are some people that have a sense of duty, and take on positions of power for reaons other than feathering their own nest.
Siam Rumoured: the Thongchai lecture in London
Reply to Nicholas #7: maybe the change in title was a case of the “pragmatism” of Thai intellectuals?
Seminar: tool of oppression or reunification?
To read an actual transcript from such a “seminar” would truly be interesting. I wonder whether it is rather a “lecture” or whether allowed student interaction is more along the lines of a “group confessional.” I also wonder how students are assessed, what happens when you fail, and whether you can drop the class.
Siam Rumoured: the Thongchai lecture in London
Patiwat, maybe you are right. I wasn’t at the seminar so I don’t know the context of the comment. Politically of course they are on the same wavelength. But how are you going to silence the Chlear academics by giving the book such faint praise in public as “not academic but worth listening to”. Isn’t that giving the Chlears an instant point on which to criticize the book? You know that in the Thai intellectual culture if you say something is not “academic” (ie. р╕зр╕┤р╕Кр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г) then (rightly or wrongly) that is an instant attack on its credibilty. My feeling is that the Chlears are never going to accept such a book, whether academic or not. Why help them by casting doubt on its academic integrity?
To be honest, I have been surprised by the rather lukewarm reception this book has been publicly received by many academics, in reviews that have been published on this website as well as elsewhere. The guy has basically sentenced himself to exile from Thailand for the forseeable future, presumably earned the hatred of a large proportion of his Thai friends and colleagues, and the people who should be most grateful for such a book can’t seem to bring themselves to give the book its due. I can’t help feeling that at least part of it is due to academic snobbery towards journalists’ work, which is a pity, because it gets in the way of what should be a common cause.
Siam Rumoured: the Thongchai lecture in London
Thanks everyone,
Just to briefly clarify –
1) Republican: As I recall, Thongchai did not provide any extensive explanation for his change of title. As you know, people do alter the advertised titles of presentations at conferences, lectures and seminars quite frequently. I think the new title was just an attempt to pose a question that clarified his argument and thinking. He has been giving a few similiar talks – perhaps the feedback he received is that this title “works” better or is more understandable. Sorry, I’m just not sure, but it is a good question.
2) Polo: Towards the end of his talk, and as Thongchai developed his conclusion “based on rumours”, he was keen to show that he sees the “Kingmakers” as the driving force behind recent events. He didn’t want to imply that this meant the factions specifically (or solely) backed any one future King or Queen. Instead, they were jostling for the right to “make” the next monarch – whoever it may be. That was one key element of the “rumour” that he outlined. He sees the longer duration of Thai history as involving key groups of “Kingmakers” and insists that, in the present, we should not overlook this aspect of Thai political culture.
Thanks for all of your comments. If further matters require clarification or explanation I may make a follow-up post and include the rest of the photos that I snapped on that evening.
All the best,
NSF
Siam Rumoured: the Thongchai lecture in London
‘No matter how much perfect foresight a leader has, he has to listen to the people, adjust his priorities to reflect popular concerns, and play by the rules.’
patiwat: Whatever happened to leading?
Are you saying that truly great people/statesmen are unelectable in modern democracies?
Actually, I think I already know the answer.
Yes – I know Prem was never elected.
Siam Rumoured: the Thongchai lecture in London
Could you explain what you think he mean about rumour at the end of his talk, what he was getting at?