I think there is a book written by a foreign soldier, actually. I can’t remember the name off the top of my head, but I remember reading a review of it. The author/soldier was a westerner who fought with the Karen. Perhaps someone else is familiar with it – I’ll try to look it up when I get the chance.
It is amusing to me that Germany should be angered by the Thais comparing Thaksin to Hitler. Who was being offended here: the Germans or the Thais? or more specifically Hitler or Thaksin?
If I were Germany and if a modern day rogue like Thaksin was being elevated (or is it depth-moted?) to Hitler, that must have meant Hitler may have some saving features after all because we can all agree that Thaksin is not all bad but it may take weeks to do a search but such search could reveal some good-sides of Thaksin.
Now let us all ask Germany to apologize to Thailand one more time.
I read Tosakan and he reads to me like a very angry man because Thailand had been way way short of ideal. it is nice to be idealistic but life is presented to us in its exact multi-colored flaws that actually make breathing a bit more special and challenging.
I mean does any one in this world really dream of living in Eden where everything is idyllic, women are beautiful and naked, the fruits are there for the picking with but one snake (who looks like Thaksin btw) to steer clear of? In Eden it wass the SNAKE who was interesting and everything else was a bore, isn’t it? Come to think of it, had the snake Thaksin not slithered in to tempt nearly every one from the village hicks to the clean-cut general, the last 6 years would have been a big yawn in Thailand.
Tosakan has raised some interesting points and I generally agree, however I reject the implication that the West is that much better and has the answers.
‘liberal democratic values’ and ‘egalitarianism’ are now just as elusive in many so called western democracies.
Also, South East Asia is not the only region in the world that needs to be looked at from a religious point of view – I wonder if it is even possible for a ‘non believer’ to ever again be elected President of USA.
The German Ambassador was being quite harsh. He pretty much called out the FM official for his bull$hit – quite undiplomatic.
To the Thais claims that we, “cannot be measured by any benchmark set by foreign governments,” he quoted Surayud: “Your benchmarks are my benchmarks.”
To the Thais, “No problem for foreign investment,” he noted that the recent laws on foreign investment were creating significant problems.
He completely laid the smackdown on the poor guy for blaming him for asking hard questions about tsunami-related donations.
Recall that Germany got quite angry when a junta-licker Banjerd Singkaneti said that Thaksin was worse than Hitler. They know bad propaganda when they hear it.
Thanks for the note on my page, Nicholas. Water issues and sustainability are clearly a shared concern between our two pages, and worthy of a lot greater attention than they’ve hitherto experienced (at least, from those sectors with the loudest publication voices). Cheers, Erik
Isn’t it rather preposterous to compare Hitler with Thaksin by using the phrase “Germany and Thailand share some painful lessons that elections do not always lead to so-called ‘democracy'”? The demonstrators against Thaksin made ample use of the supposed similarity of Thaksin to Hitler. Thaksin was even seen as a reborn Hitler. The brochure puplished by Kaewsan and Khwansuan Atipoti also carried a picture of Thaksin as Hitler forcing his will on the Thais. Besides, what Germany had under Hitler was not “so-called ‘democracy'”, but “National Sozialism”, thus the “Nazis” of the “NSDAP.” And this from a high-ranking official at the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs…
The Nation really has “jumped the shark.” I love how they blame this on the “Thaksin curse.” What the hell is that? I used to like The Nation, but now it goes after anybody who doesn’t agree with them about Thaksin. They expect the West, especially the Western press, to goose step behind the junta, and they don’t think they have to provide any evidence concerning Thaksin’s misdeeds. I have yet to see The Nation do a investigation concerning Thaksin’s nefarious empire. Everything is Thaksin this, Thaksin that, yet The Nation hasn’t done a connect the dots report about what Thaksin exactly did. The Nation talks about Thaksin’s curse and his corruption without any evidence. They are a newspapers and have a responsibility to the public. Instead, they sit on their ass waiting for orders from the junta, and blame anybody who challenges their world view.
There is a point I forgot to make in the last post. I knew it was going on too long, so I tried to cut some things out.
The thing about Southeast Asia is that you have look at it as a whole and from a certain context. That means you have to look at it from a religious point of view and from a point of view that observes social and economic relations.
Thailand is the last country of a long string of old empires in Southeast Asia that has really kept any semblance of its feudal traditions, at least related to a monarchy and state organization.
Thais love to pretend that they are a modern country with liberal
democratic values.
Let us be honest: That is the furthest thing from the truth. There is no history of real democracy in Thailand or a movement towards liberal democracy. Before the farang arrived, there was no such thing as democratic consciousness. There is no evidence of democracy in the Thai language. In fact, the opposite is true. Thais automatically rank each other according to title/age/social status, etc. Anybody who doesn’t think that this is political in some respects is fooling himself. Social stratification is built into the Thai culture just like the notion of egalitarianism is built into liberal democratic countries.
So even the notion that Thais have a democratic consciousness is a sad. pathetic joke, and whatever democratic consciousness they do have comes from the farang and liberal ideology coming from the farang.
Why else do you think democracy in Thailand is a total failure?
Of course, there are Thai democratic political theorists.
You can count them on one hand. And do you think Thai democratic theory is disseminated to the masses? Or that they even care? Of course not.
Democracy in Thailand is a facade to fool the farang into believing that Thailand is an advanced civilized country, which it is not. And the events of last year proves what I am saying in every respect.
As for the monarchy, like all monarchies. it is trying to preserve its power and its privileges. The rest of the world is entering a post-modern age–economically and politically– and the Thai monarchy still acts like it is in the MIddle Ages while the Thai military has gone back to its fascist roots of the 30’s.
Sure, the Thai middle classes want some liberal, Western freedoms, but the Thai middle classes at a microcosmic level are no different than the monarchy or the military in the way it treats its fellow citizens. The middle classes kow tow to the military and the monarchy like brainless yellow shirted zombies and they expect the peasantry to be their servants, feed them and kow tow at their feet. And so the Thai world turns.
As for Thaksin, the notion that a corrupt Chinese businessmen
is the vanguard of the Thai peasantry and working classes is absurd, and anybody who suggests it is just as absurd.
The Thai peasantry lives like all peasantry of yore, in a superstitious stupor, easily led by the nose through effective marketing campaigns and propaganda by charismatic figures.
Look at the all the ancient monuments spread throughout Southeast Asia. Those are testaments to ancient marketing.
What is the symbology?
You have giants penis everywhere, the stupas, lingum, chedi.
You have temples that represent heaven on earth.
And you have a God/King presiding over this world of gigantic cocks and little heavens.
And the people are so enthralled, fooled, by these God/Kings that they are willing to enslave themselves to them for a little bit of the magic. And so it goes in Thailand, whether the God/King be a Buddhist/Hindu Chakri or capitalist Chinese Shinawatra, it doesn’t matter. The bullshit remains the same.
I think one of the seminal texts on political theory I have read is The Grand Inquisitor by Fyodor Doestoyevsky.
It is free on the internet.
It goes to the question, the same as the one in the movie. The Matrix:
Do you choose to be a deluded slave and have all your material and spiritual needs taken care for you or do you chose to be free from self-delusion and suffer knowing that one is responsible for his own life in every way?
I think most Thais want to be deluded and be told what to do and have their material, spiritual and political needs taken care of by the elites, because all the evidence points in that direction.
And because Thai’s love self-delusion and hate personal responsibility either for themselves or their country, Thailand will never be a democracy of any kind in the future.
And all the marketing bullshit, sweet words, or crap they tell the West about democracy won’t make a difference, because Thailand like it has for the last 70 years or so will always implode from its own contradictions.
Republican: I have been quite patient with your personal attacks. However, since I don’t think that this exchange is intellectually satisfying, I will stop my part in it at this point. You being blessed with the mind you have, I trust that you won’t be able to withstand the temptation of having a final snipe at me. So, go ahead!
#23: With a little “d”, please; don’t insult me with the big “D”. Is it too much to expect people posting on an academic website to argue, aggressively if necessary, from a position? Otherwise why bother posting here? Here Vichai and Nganadit et al at least have their positions. For you, overthrowing an elected government, censoring the media and suppressing opposition by keeping them under martial law might be “boring” and a bit of a “yaaawn”. No, not for me.
’21Jan’ (#50) – I am sure Bangkok Pundit (#47) would be able to educate you on the connection between ‘sufficiency income’ and ‘responsible democracy’, and it has nothing to do with disrespecting the poor but recognizing their priorities.
To Republican (20): Apparently, you have the mind of a true “Democrat”, though somewhat too emotional and aggressive – – yaaawn jing jing (tae mai khoi sanuk thaorai).
To Srithanonchai: A social state is not exactly about self-sufficiency. Actually it means that society accepts that the poorest and weakest require the help of society as a whole.
To my knowledge many measures taken in this direction were criticized by the thai media, because people should not become dependant on government aid.
Who would support a social state-like welfare program in Thailand?
The poor? They are labelled as politically uneducated. Their demands and desires might be regarded as short-sighted, selfish and lazy by others. Only in a position where no one could veto or block their democratic majority there is a chance for them to succeed.
The middle-class? Who would end up paying the majority of required funds through higher taxes? I doubt it.
The rich? Why should they?
Good-hearted persons with political power? Financing a proper welfare depends on hefty taxes. Only someone who never used the power of his position to reduce or avoid paying taxes could be taken seriously in regards to this. I don’t see anyone of that kind in Thailand’s political landscape.
Tosakan – thanks for that excellent historical recap. I hope others join in the dialogue since I don’t know enough about Thai history to either corroborate or disagree.
However, I will point out one major difference between today’s situation and earlier succession battles – the involvement of non-elite sectors of society, from the middle classes to farmers. Whatever else one thinks of Thaksin, it’s undeniable that he has made grassroots Thais feel involved with politics for the first time. This is both a welcome and destabilizing development.
Really hoping to see more discussion about this topic, I fully agree that all this is really about succession and consequently the future of Thailand’s polity.
#13 Using a name like that it is not hard to understand why this question “bores” you. If you have no position or principle upon which your criiticisms or analyses on this academic blog are based, if your only aim is to deceive this blog’s readers (hence your name), then your postings should be understood by the readers as such.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Volunteering to fight in Burma
I think there is a book written by a foreign soldier, actually. I can’t remember the name off the top of my head, but I remember reading a review of it. The author/soldier was a westerner who fought with the Karen. Perhaps someone else is familiar with it – I’ll try to look it up when I get the chance.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
It is amusing to me that Germany should be angered by the Thais comparing Thaksin to Hitler. Who was being offended here: the Germans or the Thais? or more specifically Hitler or Thaksin?
If I were Germany and if a modern day rogue like Thaksin was being elevated (or is it depth-moted?) to Hitler, that must have meant Hitler may have some saving features after all because we can all agree that Thaksin is not all bad but it may take weeks to do a search but such search could reveal some good-sides of Thaksin.
Now let us all ask Germany to apologize to Thailand one more time.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Ambassador Bruemmer’s reply contains *some* barbs
SOME barbs?
I would say it’s a letter written on barbwire.
Talking about German’s straightforwardness…
Speculation on succession
I read Tosakan and he reads to me like a very angry man because Thailand had been way way short of ideal. it is nice to be idealistic but life is presented to us in its exact multi-colored flaws that actually make breathing a bit more special and challenging.
I mean does any one in this world really dream of living in Eden where everything is idyllic, women are beautiful and naked, the fruits are there for the picking with but one snake (who looks like Thaksin btw) to steer clear of? In Eden it wass the SNAKE who was interesting and everything else was a bore, isn’t it? Come to think of it, had the snake Thaksin not slithered in to tempt nearly every one from the village hicks to the clean-cut general, the last 6 years would have been a big yawn in Thailand.
Speculation on succession
Tosakan has raised some interesting points and I generally agree, however I reject the implication that the West is that much better and has the answers.
‘liberal democratic values’ and ‘egalitarianism’ are now just as elusive in many so called western democracies.
Also, South East Asia is not the only region in the world that needs to be looked at from a religious point of view – I wonder if it is even possible for a ‘non believer’ to ever again be elected President of USA.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
The German Ambassador was being quite harsh. He pretty much called out the FM official for his bull$hit – quite undiplomatic.
To the Thais claims that we, “cannot be measured by any benchmark set by foreign governments,” he quoted Surayud: “Your benchmarks are my benchmarks.”
To the Thais, “No problem for foreign investment,” he noted that the recent laws on foreign investment were creating significant problems.
He completely laid the smackdown on the poor guy for blaming him for asking hard questions about tsunami-related donations.
Recall that Germany got quite angry when a junta-licker Banjerd Singkaneti said that Thaksin was worse than Hitler. They know bad propaganda when they hear it.
Deathpower on capitalism and hunger
Thanks for the note on my page, Nicholas. Water issues and sustainability are clearly a shared concern between our two pages, and worthy of a lot greater attention than they’ve hitherto experienced (at least, from those sectors with the loudest publication voices). Cheers, Erik
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Don’t forget Rambo! 🙂
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Srithanonchai-
The Nazi Party came to power democratically and Adolph Hitler was the democratically elected leader of the Nazi Party.
In fact, Germany politicians voted to turn Germany into a dictatorship by giving the Chancellor emergency powers.
Mussolini, another dictator, was also elected.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Isn’t it rather preposterous to compare Hitler with Thaksin by using the phrase “Germany and Thailand share some painful lessons that elections do not always lead to so-called ‘democracy'”? The demonstrators against Thaksin made ample use of the supposed similarity of Thaksin to Hitler. Thaksin was even seen as a reborn Hitler. The brochure puplished by Kaewsan and Khwansuan Atipoti also carried a picture of Thaksin as Hitler forcing his will on the Thais. Besides, what Germany had under Hitler was not “so-called ‘democracy'”, but “National Sozialism”, thus the “Nazis” of the “NSDAP.” And this from a high-ranking official at the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs…
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
The Nation really has “jumped the shark.” I love how they blame this on the “Thaksin curse.” What the hell is that? I used to like The Nation, but now it goes after anybody who doesn’t agree with them about Thaksin. They expect the West, especially the Western press, to goose step behind the junta, and they don’t think they have to provide any evidence concerning Thaksin’s misdeeds. I have yet to see The Nation do a investigation concerning Thaksin’s nefarious empire. Everything is Thaksin this, Thaksin that, yet The Nation hasn’t done a connect the dots report about what Thaksin exactly did. The Nation talks about Thaksin’s curse and his corruption without any evidence. They are a newspapers and have a responsibility to the public. Instead, they sit on their ass waiting for orders from the junta, and blame anybody who challenges their world view.
Speculation on succession
hpboothe-
There is a point I forgot to make in the last post. I knew it was going on too long, so I tried to cut some things out.
The thing about Southeast Asia is that you have look at it as a whole and from a certain context. That means you have to look at it from a religious point of view and from a point of view that observes social and economic relations.
Thailand is the last country of a long string of old empires in Southeast Asia that has really kept any semblance of its feudal traditions, at least related to a monarchy and state organization.
Thais love to pretend that they are a modern country with liberal
democratic values.
Let us be honest: That is the furthest thing from the truth. There is no history of real democracy in Thailand or a movement towards liberal democracy. Before the farang arrived, there was no such thing as democratic consciousness. There is no evidence of democracy in the Thai language. In fact, the opposite is true. Thais automatically rank each other according to title/age/social status, etc. Anybody who doesn’t think that this is political in some respects is fooling himself. Social stratification is built into the Thai culture just like the notion of egalitarianism is built into liberal democratic countries.
So even the notion that Thais have a democratic consciousness is a sad. pathetic joke, and whatever democratic consciousness they do have comes from the farang and liberal ideology coming from the farang.
Why else do you think democracy in Thailand is a total failure?
Of course, there are Thai democratic political theorists.
You can count them on one hand. And do you think Thai democratic theory is disseminated to the masses? Or that they even care? Of course not.
Democracy in Thailand is a facade to fool the farang into believing that Thailand is an advanced civilized country, which it is not. And the events of last year proves what I am saying in every respect.
As for the monarchy, like all monarchies. it is trying to preserve its power and its privileges. The rest of the world is entering a post-modern age–economically and politically– and the Thai monarchy still acts like it is in the MIddle Ages while the Thai military has gone back to its fascist roots of the 30’s.
Sure, the Thai middle classes want some liberal, Western freedoms, but the Thai middle classes at a microcosmic level are no different than the monarchy or the military in the way it treats its fellow citizens. The middle classes kow tow to the military and the monarchy like brainless yellow shirted zombies and they expect the peasantry to be their servants, feed them and kow tow at their feet. And so the Thai world turns.
As for Thaksin, the notion that a corrupt Chinese businessmen
is the vanguard of the Thai peasantry and working classes is absurd, and anybody who suggests it is just as absurd.
The Thai peasantry lives like all peasantry of yore, in a superstitious stupor, easily led by the nose through effective marketing campaigns and propaganda by charismatic figures.
Look at the all the ancient monuments spread throughout Southeast Asia. Those are testaments to ancient marketing.
What is the symbology?
You have giants penis everywhere, the stupas, lingum, chedi.
You have temples that represent heaven on earth.
And you have a God/King presiding over this world of gigantic cocks and little heavens.
And the people are so enthralled, fooled, by these God/Kings that they are willing to enslave themselves to them for a little bit of the magic. And so it goes in Thailand, whether the God/King be a Buddhist/Hindu Chakri or capitalist Chinese Shinawatra, it doesn’t matter. The bullshit remains the same.
I think one of the seminal texts on political theory I have read is The Grand Inquisitor by Fyodor Doestoyevsky.
It is free on the internet.
It goes to the question, the same as the one in the movie. The Matrix:
Do you choose to be a deluded slave and have all your material and spiritual needs taken care for you or do you chose to be free from self-delusion and suffer knowing that one is responsible for his own life in every way?
I think most Thais want to be deluded and be told what to do and have their material, spiritual and political needs taken care of by the elites, because all the evidence points in that direction.
And because Thai’s love self-delusion and hate personal responsibility either for themselves or their country, Thailand will never be a democracy of any kind in the future.
And all the marketing bullshit, sweet words, or crap they tell the West about democracy won’t make a difference, because Thailand like it has for the last 70 years or so will always implode from its own contradictions.
Speculation on succession
Republican: I have been quite patient with your personal attacks. However, since I don’t think that this exchange is intellectually satisfying, I will stop my part in it at this point. You being blessed with the mind you have, I trust that you won’t be able to withstand the temptation of having a final snipe at me. So, go ahead!
Speculation on succession
#23: With a little “d”, please; don’t insult me with the big “D”. Is it too much to expect people posting on an academic website to argue, aggressively if necessary, from a position? Otherwise why bother posting here? Here Vichai and Nganadit et al at least have their positions. For you, overthrowing an elected government, censoring the media and suppressing opposition by keeping them under martial law might be “boring” and a bit of a “yaaawn”. No, not for me.
Chang Noi on ‘unity’ and the dictatorship
’21Jan’ (#50) – I am sure Bangkok Pundit (#47) would be able to educate you on the connection between ‘sufficiency income’ and ‘responsible democracy’, and it has nothing to do with disrespecting the poor but recognizing their priorities.
Speculation on succession
To Republican (20): Apparently, you have the mind of a true “Democrat”, though somewhat too emotional and aggressive – – yaaawn jing jing (tae mai khoi sanuk thaorai).
General Surayud pitches 2007 as “year of great reforms”
To Srithanonchai: A social state is not exactly about self-sufficiency. Actually it means that society accepts that the poorest and weakest require the help of society as a whole.
To my knowledge many measures taken in this direction were criticized by the thai media, because people should not become dependant on government aid.
Who would support a social state-like welfare program in Thailand?
The poor? They are labelled as politically uneducated. Their demands and desires might be regarded as short-sighted, selfish and lazy by others. Only in a position where no one could veto or block their democratic majority there is a chance for them to succeed.
The middle-class? Who would end up paying the majority of required funds through higher taxes? I doubt it.
The rich? Why should they?
Good-hearted persons with political power? Financing a proper welfare depends on hefty taxes. Only someone who never used the power of his position to reduce or avoid paying taxes could be taken seriously in regards to this. I don’t see anyone of that kind in Thailand’s political landscape.
Speculation on succession
But, the 1997 constitution has been torn down by the military junta.
Speculation on succession
Tosakan – thanks for that excellent historical recap. I hope others join in the dialogue since I don’t know enough about Thai history to either corroborate or disagree.
However, I will point out one major difference between today’s situation and earlier succession battles – the involvement of non-elite sectors of society, from the middle classes to farmers. Whatever else one thinks of Thaksin, it’s undeniable that he has made grassroots Thais feel involved with politics for the first time. This is both a welcome and destabilizing development.
Really hoping to see more discussion about this topic, I fully agree that all this is really about succession and consequently the future of Thailand’s polity.
Speculation on succession
#13 Using a name like that it is not hard to understand why this question “bores” you. If you have no position or principle upon which your criiticisms or analyses on this academic blog are based, if your only aim is to deceive this blog’s readers (hence your name), then your postings should be understood by the readers as such.