Srithanonchai, tosakon’s point is that you are trying to say that because hitler wasn’t really democratically elected, the German people were not responsible for the atrocities they committed. Anyway from reading your comment that is the impression I got.
nganadeeleg like you I wonder why so many guillible Thais remain still believeing in Beloved Leader.
Take just the most recent case of Suvarnabhumi Airport, spanking cracking (pun intended) new now OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED UNSAFE, toilets not only leaking but flooding, and of course the runway cracks! Internationally more jokes have been cracked about Thailand’s Suvarnabhumi Airport we Thais can also just grin and bear it in disgrace.
Late in 2005 Thaksin nearly shut down Bangkok Post with multi-billion lawsuit unless the newspaper retracted their article warning about glaring cracks at Suvarnabhumi runways! Bangkok Post did retract and fired two of their reporters to keep their newspaper open.
Yeah . . . don’t tell me HONEST MISTAKES by Thaksin again.
Are we guys still at it arguing who deserves to be named ‘Mother of all Evil’ Thaksin or Hitler? No wonder the Germans were fuming mad with the Thais trying to usurp the ‘most evil’ world record.
Maybe a more worthy question (and with this I would expect Republican, Anon, TaxiDriver to give me a well-deserved admonishment) is: Who is the Most Evil ever in Southeast Asia: Thaksin, Marcos, or Suharto?
I would argue for Marcos of course, but Republican just to spite me will surely argue for Thaksin!
Tosakan: I was quite bewildered reading your questions, “I wonder if Srithanonchai is going to deny the holocaust also and pretend that didn’t happen. Or maybe Germany never invaded Poland or France or Norway or Belgium or Holland. Maybe Hitler never existed and he was just made up by Jews in Hollywood.”
This is like turning what I said in my post from white to black (or in this case, rather into brown). It should have been pretty obvious that I argue from an anti-Nazi position (Republican will be elated that, finally, Srithanonchai has announced a “position”). That is, Hitler was so incredibly evil that any comparison of Thaksin to Hitler is due to internal Thai political opportunism and ignorance, as opposed to the historical facts.
I love how all the Nazi revisionists come out of the wood work. Well all seem to agree, however, that Thaksin was no Hitler.
Anyway, let us be honest, shall we: Hitler was brought to power through normal constitutional processes, which had democratic components to them, such as elections. The Nazis may have never been the majority party, but the other right wing parties were in coalition with the Nazis. Let us not pretend otherwise.
Hitler was selected by his party to be the leader countless times. Sure, his rivals may have been murdered, but that doesn’t mean he still wasn’t supported by the majority of Nazis, and when Hitler became dictator, the masses loved him even more.
Some Germans, just like some Thais, love their revisionist history, because they want to come off looking more civilized than they really are.
I wonder if Srithanonchai is going to deny the holocaust also and pretend that didn’t happen. Or maybe Germany never invaded Poland or France or Norway or Belgium or Holland. Maybe Hitler never existed and he was just made up by Jews in Hollywood.
Do you really want to discuss SA politics of the 1930’s?
You mean, who was the bigger German murderer, Roehm or Hitler? Who cares? They were both thugs, and they were thugs loved by their people.
21 Jan. You are misinformed and distorting the picture of that time.
The Versailles Treaty and the Weimar Republic were two separate things.
The Versailles Treaty was the peace treaty signed with the allies, listing conditions of peace and reparations, and all that.
The Weimar Republic that followed WWI had the most liberal Constitution in the world during that time. Further, the notion that Germans hated democracy is wrong. Germany was moving towards liberal democracy in many ways long before World War 1 even began. From the mid to end of the 19th century, it would go through period or reactionary backlash and political liberalization. And certain German states were more liberal than others. For example, the Rhineland was more liberal than Prussia.
Therefore, Liberal democracy was not imposed on Germany by any foreign power before World War 1.
Republican: What a load of nonsense – ‘Live free or die – ‘desperation and oppression’ .
Sounds more like some people have a vested interest, or are being paid to stir up trouble.
At least the anti Thaksin protests were peaceful, but it looks increasingly like the desperate Thaksin doesn’t care about peace.
Unfortunately, Thaksin cannot be believed when he says ‘enough is enough’, and it appears he would rather sacrifice the country than lose his wealth.
A different personality would be satisfied with being slightly less richer and the chance to quietly return as a private citizen.
#1: If there is any doubt about where The Nation’s loyalties lie just look at its editorial’s glowing praise for the Constitution drafting process [http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/30/opinion/opinion_30025468.php]. This process is now headed by intelligence chief and Prem loyalist, Prasong Sunsiri. One wonders what on earth a military intelligence officer is doing heading a Constitutional Drafting panel, but of course in this case the answer is obvious.
But is it wise for The Nation to show such support for this Constitution, which can only go down in history (if indeed it is ever drafted) as a “dictator’s Constitution”?
Tosakan: Thanks for the clarification – I accept that you did not specifically state that the West is better, and therefore will ignore what I perceived was implied in your post.
The only reason I raised the USA was because it seems implicit in many comments (here and elsewhere), that the US system is some perfect model of a political system that should be aspired to.
Apart from the healthy respect for the law in the USA (for it’s citizens at least), I think Thailand would be better served looking elsewhere to improve it’s political system.
I agree there is no point discussing the merits/faults of the US political system on this site.
The Thai Foreign Affairs Ministry – one of the last bastions of the sakdina and royalists – try getting into this Ministry without the right surname. Not surprising that it is an anti-Thaksin stronghold.
Just posted on р╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ webboard: р╕Фр╣Ир╕зр╕Щ!!! р╕Др╕бр╕К р╣Вр╕Фр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Ир╕▓р╕Щр╣Др╕Ыр╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з
live free or die Posted : 2007-01-30 03:43:03
Open letter to the international community
Plea for Democracy in Thailand
As you are well aware, Thailand’s elected government, under the leadership of Thaksin Shinawatra, was overthrown by a faction of military elites last September.
We, Thai people who love democracy, were embarrassed, frustrated and stunned as we had never expected that an obsolete coup d’ tat would take place again in our country in the 21st century.
Thai people are currently living in desperation and under oppression by the military junta who has stripped us of our rights of speech, rights of access to information and the basic rights of human beings.
The putsch has not only set back our relatively deep-rooted democracy to nothing, but also destroyed our economic strength, which was built up by former elected governments.
The junta is trying to convince us that they would draft a new constitution and schedule a general election within a year. But we do not want the constitution handed to us by “a group of robbers in the disguise of army generals”. We want our 1992 Constitution to be reinstated as it is widely accepted as the best one in Thailand’s modern democratic history.
We believe that the junta-drafted constitution would only legitimize their political gain allowing for the continuation of their presence in Thai politics.
We seek military reform; a military that is akin to other civilized nations; a military without political influence.
Thai people historically are opposed to a dictatorship, we believe that another protest resulting in bloodshed is inevitable if the military declines to step down. Thai people will not tolerate a military regime over the long term.
We do not want to see history repeat itself, like the major popular uprising in 1973, 1976 and 1992, when thousands of unarmed civilians had to sacrifice their lives for the sake of democracy. In fact, the present military-appointed prime minister General Surayud Chulanont was the one who led a paramilitary troop to violently suppress protesters in the 1992 pro-democratic demonstration.
To seize administrative power from an elected government is a criminal act according to the Thailand’s Criminal Law. We want to see those who have perpetrated this crime to be brought to justice so as to prevent this barbarous act from reoccurring in the future.
In the present era of globalization, political and economic instability in one country or one region does affect the region and thus the global community. Hence, it is time for the world community to act in unity in eliminating an unjustifiable coup d’tat.
Therefore;
We call on the world communities to condemn and impose possible measures to punish these dictators.
We call on the world communities to isolate the illegitimate government.
We call on the governments around the world to freeze diplomatic relations with the junta-installed government.
We call for an international forum wherein the political destitution of Thailand is addressed; wherein the Thai people are represented in a multi-lateral fashion.
#25: Not a “personal attack”, but an attack on your lack of position, or at least your unwillingness to declare it. If you criticize then you must be willing to defend your position – which was what I was seeking clarification of.
I think on the long run Thailand has to take a more egalitarian and less hierarchical way, because with education as the most important resource of the 21th century and a population of only (at least compared to China and India) 65 Million you cannot rely only on the talents of a small elite, you have to encourage and assist high level education also and especially for the talented but poorer parts of the population.
I also think that Tosakan has raised some points worthy of consideration and I tend to agree to a certain point, but I still hope that there is no general Thai inability for democracy.
“The rich don’t go to prison” sums it up. My own analysis will be too grim for some – as long as donors are prepared to offer aid to countries with poverty, the elites of those countries will have a monetary incentive to increase poverty. the problem is thus a combination of external and internal factors: lawlessness at home combined with misplaced generosity from abroad. We cannot stop the lawless behavour of the Lao elite, but we can stop rewarding their greed. The positive social progams of the Pathet Lao, limited as they were, belonged to the period when the outside word was not pumping so much cash into the PDR. Only good governence can improve life in the PDR, but that is out of our control.
1. When did I ever say that the West is better? And how is saying that the West is better or not better have to do with Thailand?
Personally, I think the problem with Thailand is that it thinks it is a liberal democracy when it is not. Thailand has a military dictatorship, and it has had one for most of the last 70 years, and underpinning all Thai social and economic relationships is a sakdina/feudal mentality, which is antithetical to liberal democracy and political freedom.
I don’t want Thailand to copy the West, because it has demonstrated over the years that it has no respect for Western values or liberal democracy. Thailand should stick to Thai values. Singapore, China and Vietnam are Asian countries that have said no to liberal democracy, and they don’t care what the West thinks of them.
2. As for the US, I always love it when another country is talked about, criticizing the US is considered a counter argument. What does the US have to do with Thailand?
Regardless, with all its faults, the US is a strong liberal democracy with a high degree of political freedom. Unlike Thailand, the US has never embraced fascism or a military dictatorship, and unlike Thailand, it has a Constitution that it abides by and a healthy respect for the rule of law.
Australia, Canada and New Zealand, with all their faults, have a high degree of political freedom.
And the Scandinavian countries are Western liberal democracies with a high degree of both political freedom and economic egalitarianism.
3. As for the religious bit, what is your point? This is a website about Southeast Asia, not about religion in the US.
In Thailand, the people crawl on the ground like dogs before their religious and political superiors. They worship their king as if he were semi-divine. Nobody does that is the West, including the religious kooks in the US.
In Thailand, people refer to themselves in relation to their king as dust on his august feet and call him a God/Buddha -Phraputtachao.
In the US, people refer to their president as Mister.
Tosakan: Being a German with a strong interest in recent history, I am not too badly informed about the Weimar Republic, Hitler, and what followed. That’s the reason why I caution to adopt short-cut opportunistic comparisons. By the way, that Hitler should have been the “democratically elected leader of the Nazi Party” is rather funny, since the party strictly followed the “leadership principle” (Fuehrerprinzip). Also, in mid-1934, Hitler had the leaders of a rival clique in the party murdered (Roehm Putsch). Not very democratic; or, perhaps, this was Hitler’s “post-democratic” period?
Patiwat: I think the Germans did not get angry, but were merely in disbelief about Ajarn Banjerd’s ignorance — increased by the fact that he had graduated with a Dr. jur. from Germany. So he should have known better. By saying that Hitler was better for Germany than Thaksin for Thailand, because Hitler developed large-scale infrastructure projects, basically reflects a standard “argument” by nostalgic Germans, and by German Neo-Nazis. Not a nice company.
And of course thank you Mr Bruemmer for your firm reply and the fact that not every foreign politician buys this smooth-as-silk-flower-power-coup bullshit
Tosakan – It was a bit more complicated:
First the majority of the Germans of that time had no respect for democracy, they though of something that was forced to them by the victors of the First World War. They also hated the Versailles treaty and thought of themselves as a humiliated nation.
Second the nation was sharply divided, there was no political power for the parties of the center, left- and rightwing-parties came together (if you also count the social-democrats as left of the center) above 70% of the votes.
In July 32 elections the Nazis (NSDAP) received 37,3 % of the votes (a gain of 19,0% compared to the 18,3% in 1930) but could not form a coalition. Soon afterwards the parlament was again dissolved and in the November 1932 elections the NSDAP received only 33,1% of the votes (they lost more than two million votes). In this political deadlock Hitler was appointed chancellor in January 1933 because he had the support of president Hindenburg and his camarilla, of the nationalist parties and of the high finance who all feared the communist / socialist threat and who thought of Hitler as the lesser evil.
After the Reichstag fire Hitler got powerful rights through emergency decrees and he got rid of the communists who got the blame for the arson. After another election in March 1933 the NSDAP got 43,9% of the votes. With the help of some votes from the nationalists (DNVP) and the christian Center party (Zentrum) the parlament enacted the Enabling Act which gave Hitler dictatorial powers and made the parlament irrelevant.
I would not call this excactly a democratic process – and of course regarding the comparison of Thaksin with Hitler I have to say that even if every accusation to the Antichri…err…Thaksin should be true you still can compare the two (but of course I know you are aware of that fact)
That Banjerd guy from Thammasart was quoted in the old BkkPost article (link provided by Patiwat #4) that “Hitler, despite being a dictator, had contributed a great deal to Germany…Hitler killed Jews but he did several things for his country. He was more useful for the country than Mr Thaksin was”.
What a sad state of affairs for Thai academia when a (presumably) senior academic lacks the most basic understanding of what happened to Germany (and the rest of Europe) under Hitler. This guy must simply have no credible standing anywhere outside the gates of Thammasart. Patiwat, how do you cope with these people?
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Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Srithanonchai, tosakon’s point is that you are trying to say that because hitler wasn’t really democratically elected, the German people were not responsible for the atrocities they committed. Anyway from reading your comment that is the impression I got.
Speculation on succession
nganadeeleg like you I wonder why so many guillible Thais remain still believeing in Beloved Leader.
Take just the most recent case of Suvarnabhumi Airport, spanking cracking (pun intended) new now OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED UNSAFE, toilets not only leaking but flooding, and of course the runway cracks! Internationally more jokes have been cracked about Thailand’s Suvarnabhumi Airport we Thais can also just grin and bear it in disgrace.
Late in 2005 Thaksin nearly shut down Bangkok Post with multi-billion lawsuit unless the newspaper retracted their article warning about glaring cracks at Suvarnabhumi runways! Bangkok Post did retract and fired two of their reporters to keep their newspaper open.
Yeah . . . don’t tell me HONEST MISTAKES by Thaksin again.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Are we guys still at it arguing who deserves to be named ‘Mother of all Evil’ Thaksin or Hitler? No wonder the Germans were fuming mad with the Thais trying to usurp the ‘most evil’ world record.
Maybe a more worthy question (and with this I would expect Republican, Anon, TaxiDriver to give me a well-deserved admonishment) is: Who is the Most Evil ever in Southeast Asia: Thaksin, Marcos, or Suharto?
I would argue for Marcos of course, but Republican just to spite me will surely argue for Thaksin!
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Tosakan: I was quite bewildered reading your questions, “I wonder if Srithanonchai is going to deny the holocaust also and pretend that didn’t happen. Or maybe Germany never invaded Poland or France or Norway or Belgium or Holland. Maybe Hitler never existed and he was just made up by Jews in Hollywood.”
This is like turning what I said in my post from white to black (or in this case, rather into brown). It should have been pretty obvious that I argue from an anti-Nazi position (Republican will be elated that, finally, Srithanonchai has announced a “position”). That is, Hitler was so incredibly evil that any comparison of Thaksin to Hitler is due to internal Thai political opportunism and ignorance, as opposed to the historical facts.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
I love how all the Nazi revisionists come out of the wood work. Well all seem to agree, however, that Thaksin was no Hitler.
Anyway, let us be honest, shall we: Hitler was brought to power through normal constitutional processes, which had democratic components to them, such as elections. The Nazis may have never been the majority party, but the other right wing parties were in coalition with the Nazis. Let us not pretend otherwise.
Hitler was selected by his party to be the leader countless times. Sure, his rivals may have been murdered, but that doesn’t mean he still wasn’t supported by the majority of Nazis, and when Hitler became dictator, the masses loved him even more.
Some Germans, just like some Thais, love their revisionist history, because they want to come off looking more civilized than they really are.
I wonder if Srithanonchai is going to deny the holocaust also and pretend that didn’t happen. Or maybe Germany never invaded Poland or France or Norway or Belgium or Holland. Maybe Hitler never existed and he was just made up by Jews in Hollywood.
Do you really want to discuss SA politics of the 1930’s?
You mean, who was the bigger German murderer, Roehm or Hitler? Who cares? They were both thugs, and they were thugs loved by their people.
21 Jan. You are misinformed and distorting the picture of that time.
The Versailles Treaty and the Weimar Republic were two separate things.
The Versailles Treaty was the peace treaty signed with the allies, listing conditions of peace and reparations, and all that.
The Weimar Republic that followed WWI had the most liberal Constitution in the world during that time. Further, the notion that Germans hated democracy is wrong. Germany was moving towards liberal democracy in many ways long before World War 1 even began. From the mid to end of the 19th century, it would go through period or reactionary backlash and political liberalization. And certain German states were more liberal than others. For example, the Rhineland was more liberal than Prussia.
Therefore, Liberal democracy was not imposed on Germany by any foreign power before World War 1.
Speculation on succession
Republican: What a load of nonsense – ‘Live free or die – ‘desperation and oppression’ .
Sounds more like some people have a vested interest, or are being paid to stir up trouble.
At least the anti Thaksin protests were peaceful, but it looks increasingly like the desperate Thaksin doesn’t care about peace.
Unfortunately, Thaksin cannot be believed when he says ‘enough is enough’, and it appears he would rather sacrifice the country than lose his wealth.
A different personality would be satisfied with being slightly less richer and the chance to quietly return as a private citizen.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
#1: If there is any doubt about where The Nation’s loyalties lie just look at its editorial’s glowing praise for the Constitution drafting process [http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/30/opinion/opinion_30025468.php]. This process is now headed by intelligence chief and Prem loyalist, Prasong Sunsiri. One wonders what on earth a military intelligence officer is doing heading a Constitutional Drafting panel, but of course in this case the answer is obvious.
But is it wise for The Nation to show such support for this Constitution, which can only go down in history (if indeed it is ever drafted) as a “dictator’s Constitution”?
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
21 Jan. (no. 8): Thanks very much for these data. I had in mind finding them, but was in a rush.
Speculation on succession
Tosakan: Thanks for the clarification – I accept that you did not specifically state that the West is better, and therefore will ignore what I perceived was implied in your post.
The only reason I raised the USA was because it seems implicit in many comments (here and elsewhere), that the US system is some perfect model of a political system that should be aspired to.
Apart from the healthy respect for the law in the USA (for it’s citizens at least), I think Thailand would be better served looking elsewhere to improve it’s political system.
I agree there is no point discussing the merits/faults of the US political system on this site.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
The Thai Foreign Affairs Ministry – one of the last bastions of the sakdina and royalists – try getting into this Ministry without the right surname. Not surprising that it is an anti-Thaksin stronghold.
Speculation on succession
Just posted on р╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ webboard: р╕Фр╣Ир╕зр╕Щ!!! р╕Др╕бр╕К р╣Вр╕Фр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Ир╕▓р╕Щр╣Др╕Ыр╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з
live free or die Posted : 2007-01-30 03:43:03
Open letter to the international community
Plea for Democracy in Thailand
As you are well aware, Thailand’s elected government, under the leadership of Thaksin Shinawatra, was overthrown by a faction of military elites last September.
We, Thai people who love democracy, were embarrassed, frustrated and stunned as we had never expected that an obsolete coup d’ tat would take place again in our country in the 21st century.
Thai people are currently living in desperation and under oppression by the military junta who has stripped us of our rights of speech, rights of access to information and the basic rights of human beings.
The putsch has not only set back our relatively deep-rooted democracy to nothing, but also destroyed our economic strength, which was built up by former elected governments.
The junta is trying to convince us that they would draft a new constitution and schedule a general election within a year. But we do not want the constitution handed to us by “a group of robbers in the disguise of army generals”. We want our 1992 Constitution to be reinstated as it is widely accepted as the best one in Thailand’s modern democratic history.
We believe that the junta-drafted constitution would only legitimize their political gain allowing for the continuation of their presence in Thai politics.
We seek military reform; a military that is akin to other civilized nations; a military without political influence.
Thai people historically are opposed to a dictatorship, we believe that another protest resulting in bloodshed is inevitable if the military declines to step down. Thai people will not tolerate a military regime over the long term.
We do not want to see history repeat itself, like the major popular uprising in 1973, 1976 and 1992, when thousands of unarmed civilians had to sacrifice their lives for the sake of democracy. In fact, the present military-appointed prime minister General Surayud Chulanont was the one who led a paramilitary troop to violently suppress protesters in the 1992 pro-democratic demonstration.
To seize administrative power from an elected government is a criminal act according to the Thailand’s Criminal Law. We want to see those who have perpetrated this crime to be brought to justice so as to prevent this barbarous act from reoccurring in the future.
In the present era of globalization, political and economic instability in one country or one region does affect the region and thus the global community. Hence, it is time for the world community to act in unity in eliminating an unjustifiable coup d’tat.
Therefore;
We call on the world communities to condemn and impose possible measures to punish these dictators.
We call on the world communities to isolate the illegitimate government.
We call on the governments around the world to freeze diplomatic relations with the junta-installed government.
We call for an international forum wherein the political destitution of Thailand is addressed; wherein the Thai people are represented in a multi-lateral fashion.
The Alliance of Pro-democracy Movements
(р╕Др╕│р╣Бр╕Ыр╕е)
р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╣Др╕Ыр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Вр╕Др╣Ир╕Щр╕ер╣Йр╕бр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕ер╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щ р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 19 р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕Щ р╕Юр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕К 2549
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕лр╕зр╕Зр╣Бр╕лр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕нр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в р╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕кр╕╢р╕Бр╕Кр╕┤р╕Зр╕Кр╕▒р╕Зр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕нр╕▒р╕Ър╕нр╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕вр╕┤р╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Фр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щ р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Др╕▓р╕Фр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Ир╕░р╕нр╕╕р╕Ър╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╣Гр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓
р╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Хр╕нр╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Хр╕Бр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕кр╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕кр╕┤р╣Йр╕Щр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕З р╕нр╕╢р╕Фр╕нр╕▒р╕Фр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕нр╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Бр╕╡р╕Фр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕кр╕гр╕╡р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕кр╕Фр╕Зр╕нр╕нр╕Б р╣Ар╕кр╕гр╕╡р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕бр╕╣р╕ер╕Вр╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕▓р╕г р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕кр╕гр╕╡р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Вр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Рр╕▓р╕Щр╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕З р╣Ж р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ър╕╕р╕Др╕Др╕ер╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕ар╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╣Гр╕Хр╣Йр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕нр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕вр╕Юр╕╢р╕Зр╕бр╕╡
р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕╢р╕Фр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕И р╕Щр╕нр╕Бр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Ир╕░р╕Чр╕│р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕нр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕вр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Цр╕нр╕вр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕│р╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕кр╕Цр╕╡р╕вр╕гр╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕┤р╕И р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕ер╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕нр╕╕р╕Хр╕кр╣Ир╕▓р╕лр╣Мр╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╕бр╕бр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕вр╕▓р╕Бр╕ер╕│р╕Ър╕▓р╕Б
р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕Ьр╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕кр╕▒р╕Нр╕Нр╕▓р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕Др╕╖р╕Щр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕нр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Бр╕Бр╣Ир╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕Кр╕▓р╕зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕ар╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Ыр╕╡р╕Щр╕▒р╕Ър╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕╢р╕Фр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕И р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕вр╕┤р╕Щр╕вр╕нр╕бр╕Бр╣Йр╕бр╕лр╕▒р╕зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Щр╕╣р╕Нр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕лр╕вр╕┤р╕Ър╕вр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Вр╕Фр╕в “р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╣Вр╕Ир╕гр╣Гр╕Щр╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕г”
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Щр╕│р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Щр╕╣р╕Нр╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щ р╕Ыр╕╡р╕Юр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕К 2540 р╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╕бр╕▓р╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕б
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕гр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Щр╕╣р╕Нр╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╕Кр╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕╖р╕Ър╕Чр╕нр╕Фр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕кр╕Щр╕▒р╕Ър╕кр╕Щр╕╕р╕Щр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕кр╕╖р╕Ър╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╣Др╕Ыр╕нр╕╡р╕Б
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Вр╕Др╕гр╕Зр╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Ю р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╕нр╕▓р╕Кр╕╡р╕Юр╕Фр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╕Щр╕▓р╕Щр╕▓р╕нр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕░р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣И р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕╕р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╣Бр╕Ър╕Ър╣Гр╕Фр╕Бр╣Зр╕Хр╕▓р╕б
р╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕вр╕нр╕бр╕ер╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╣Ар╕гр╣Зр╕зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕╕р╕Ф р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Щр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕ер╕╖р╕нр╕Фр╕Ир╕░р╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╕бр╕▓р╕кр╕╣р╣Ир╕Ьр╕╖р╕Щр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕З р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Фр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 14 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕Юр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕К 2516 р╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣М 6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕Юр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕К 2519 р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Юр╕др╕йр╕ар╕▓р╕Чр╕бр╕┤р╕м р╕Юр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕К 2535 р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕зр╕╡р╕гр╕Кр╕Щр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕ер╕╡р╕Кр╕╡р╕Юр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Ыр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в
р╕ар╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Хр╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕зр╕ер╕Бр╕Ор╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕▓р╕Нр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕в р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕ер╣Йр╕бр╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕нр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Рр╕▓р╕Щ “р╕Бр╕Ър╕П” р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Ир╕╢р╕Зр╕нр╕вр╕▓р╕Бр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Фр╕│р╣Ар╕Щр╕┤р╕Щр╕Др╕Фр╕╡р╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕╢р╕Фр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕вр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Зр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╣Бр╕Бр╣Ир╕Ър╕╕р╕Др╕Др╕ер╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╣Гр╕Ф р╣Ж р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Ир╕░р╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕вр╕╢р╕Фр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Ьр╕ер╣Гр╕Фр╕Бр╣Зр╕Хр╕▓р╕б
р╣Гр╕Щр╕вр╕╕р╕Др╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╕▓р╕ар╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤ р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕кр╕Цр╕╡р╕вр╕гр╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕┤р╕Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Гр╕Фр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕ар╕╣р╕бр╕┤р╕ар╕▓р╕Др╣Гр╕Фр╕ар╕╣р╕бр╕┤р╕ар╕▓р╕Др╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З р╕вр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╕кр╣Ир╕Зр╕Ьр╕ер╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕Ър╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Хр╕гр╕Зр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕нр╣Йр╕нр╕бр╣Др╕Ыр╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╕ар╕╣р╕бр╕┤р╕ар╕▓р╕Др╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╣Ж р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕кр╣Ир╕Зр╕Ьр╕ер╕ер╕╕р╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕бр╣Др╕Ыр╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╣Вр╕ер╕Б
р╕Ир╕╢р╕Зр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Др╕бр╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╣Ир╕зр╕бр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╕│р╕Ир╕▒р╕Фр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕кр╕╣р╕Нр╕кр╕┤р╣Йр╕Щр╣Др╕Ыр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕кр╕┤р╣Йр╕Щр╣Ар╕Кр╕┤р╕З
р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Ир╕╢р╕Зр╕Вр╕нр╣Ар╕гр╕╡р╕вр╕Бр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕З
? р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Др╕бр╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Ур╕▓р╕бр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Фр╕│р╣Ар╕Щр╕┤р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Хр╕гр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕ер╕Зр╣Вр╕Чр╕йр╣Ар╕Ьр╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕г
? р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Др╕бр╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╣Вр╕Фр╕Фр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╣Ар╕Цр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕гр╣Йр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Кр╕нр╕Ър╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕и
? р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╣Вр╕ер╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Зр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕кр╕▒р╕бр╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╣Мр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╣р╕Хр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕лр╕╕р╣Ир╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕Ур╕░р╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤
? р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╣Ар╕зр╕Чр╕╡р╕Щр╕▓р╕Щр╕▓р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Бр╕Бр╣Йр╣Др╕Вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╕кр╕╣р╣Ир╕кр╕ар╕▓р╕зр╕░р╕Ыр╕Бр╕Хр╕┤р╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╣Ар╕гр╣Зр╕з
р╣Бр╕Щр╕зр╕гр╣Ир╕зр╕бр╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в
р╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╣Др╕Ыр╕Фр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕Ър╕Щ
live free or die Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:57:14 AM
р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕б: Newbie
р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕б: Member
р╕кр╕бр╕▒р╕Др╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕н: 1/30/2007
р╕Ир╕│р╕Щр╕зр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щ: 0
р╕Кр╣Ир╕зр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕кр╣Ир╕Зр╣Др╕Ыр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕ер╕┤р╕кр╕Хр╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Др╕зр╣Йр╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕З р╕Вр╕нр╕Ър╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ
These are the address of sites and e-mails that the letter has been sent to:
BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4995300.stm***
STATEWIDE (USA)
NYTIMES
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
The New Yorker
[email protected]***
***
Boston Globe
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
LA Weekly
http://www.laweekly.com/index.php?option=com_philaform&form_id=2&Itemid=1***
San Francisco Weekly
http://www.sfweekly.com/about/staff.php***
LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/services/site/la-comment-national-cf,0,3655408.customform***
Chicago Tribune
http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/site/chi-email-newstips,1,971890.customform?coll=chi-navrailservices-nav***
TEXAS
AUSTIN AMERICAN STATESMAN
http://www.statesman.com/search/content/feedback/printnationworld.html?http://www.statesman.com/***
USA TODAY
http://feedbackforms.usatoday.com/marketing/feedback/feedback-online.aspx?type=12***
Houston Chrр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Вр╕Жр╕йр╕Ур╕▓cle
[email protected]***
The Oregр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Вр╕Жр╕йр╕Ур╕▓an
[email protected]р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Вр╕Жр╕йр╕Ур╕▓an.com***
[email protected]р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Вр╕Жр╕йр╕Ур╕▓an.com***
UN
http://ochaonline.un.org/contactus.asp***
[email protected]***
IndyMedia
http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml***
ASEAN
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
ARF
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
EU
[email protected]
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
IDEA
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
Dutch News
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
Het
[email protected]***
Spain
Barcelonareporter.com***
Portugal
themadeiratimes
http://www.themadeiratimes.com/contacts2.php***
http://www.the-news.net/***
Belgium
http://www.euractiv.com/en/EmailToEditor?title=Contact%20justice%20content%20coordinator&[email protected]***
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_contact_form.asp?channel_id=3***
[email protected]***
switz
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
http://www.blick.ch/feedback/feedback#***
Whitehouse
[email protected]***
[email protected]***
Speculation on succession
#25: Not a “personal attack”, but an attack on your lack of position, or at least your unwillingness to declare it. If you criticize then you must be willing to defend your position – which was what I was seeking clarification of.
Speculation on succession
I think on the long run Thailand has to take a more egalitarian and less hierarchical way, because with education as the most important resource of the 21th century and a population of only (at least compared to China and India) 65 Million you cannot rely only on the talents of a small elite, you have to encourage and assist high level education also and especially for the talented but poorer parts of the population.
I also think that Tosakan has raised some points worthy of consideration and I tend to agree to a certain point, but I still hope that there is no general Thai inability for democracy.
The rich don’t go to prison, and the poor don’t go to hospital
“The rich don’t go to prison” sums it up. My own analysis will be too grim for some – as long as donors are prepared to offer aid to countries with poverty, the elites of those countries will have a monetary incentive to increase poverty. the problem is thus a combination of external and internal factors: lawlessness at home combined with misplaced generosity from abroad. We cannot stop the lawless behavour of the Lao elite, but we can stop rewarding their greed. The positive social progams of the Pathet Lao, limited as they were, belonged to the period when the outside word was not pumping so much cash into the PDR. Only good governence can improve life in the PDR, but that is out of our control.
Speculation on succession
nganadeeleg-
1. When did I ever say that the West is better? And how is saying that the West is better or not better have to do with Thailand?
Personally, I think the problem with Thailand is that it thinks it is a liberal democracy when it is not. Thailand has a military dictatorship, and it has had one for most of the last 70 years, and underpinning all Thai social and economic relationships is a sakdina/feudal mentality, which is antithetical to liberal democracy and political freedom.
I don’t want Thailand to copy the West, because it has demonstrated over the years that it has no respect for Western values or liberal democracy. Thailand should stick to Thai values. Singapore, China and Vietnam are Asian countries that have said no to liberal democracy, and they don’t care what the West thinks of them.
2. As for the US, I always love it when another country is talked about, criticizing the US is considered a counter argument. What does the US have to do with Thailand?
Regardless, with all its faults, the US is a strong liberal democracy with a high degree of political freedom. Unlike Thailand, the US has never embraced fascism or a military dictatorship, and unlike Thailand, it has a Constitution that it abides by and a healthy respect for the rule of law.
Australia, Canada and New Zealand, with all their faults, have a high degree of political freedom.
And the Scandinavian countries are Western liberal democracies with a high degree of both political freedom and economic egalitarianism.
3. As for the religious bit, what is your point? This is a website about Southeast Asia, not about religion in the US.
In Thailand, the people crawl on the ground like dogs before their religious and political superiors. They worship their king as if he were semi-divine. Nobody does that is the West, including the religious kooks in the US.
In Thailand, people refer to themselves in relation to their king as dust on his august feet and call him a God/Buddha -Phraputtachao.
In the US, people refer to their president as Mister.
See the difference?
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Tosakan: Being a German with a strong interest in recent history, I am not too badly informed about the Weimar Republic, Hitler, and what followed. That’s the reason why I caution to adopt short-cut opportunistic comparisons. By the way, that Hitler should have been the “democratically elected leader of the Nazi Party” is rather funny, since the party strictly followed the “leadership principle” (Fuehrerprinzip). Also, in mid-1934, Hitler had the leaders of a rival clique in the party murdered (Roehm Putsch). Not very democratic; or, perhaps, this was Hitler’s “post-democratic” period?
Patiwat: I think the Germans did not get angry, but were merely in disbelief about Ajarn Banjerd’s ignorance — increased by the fact that he had graduated with a Dr. jur. from Germany. So he should have known better. By saying that Hitler was better for Germany than Thaksin for Thailand, because Hitler developed large-scale infrastructure projects, basically reflects a standard “argument” by nostalgic Germans, and by German Neo-Nazis. Not a nice company.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
And of course thank you Mr Bruemmer for your firm reply and the fact that not every foreign politician buys this smooth-as-silk-flower-power-coup bullshit
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
Tosakan – It was a bit more complicated:
First the majority of the Germans of that time had no respect for democracy, they though of something that was forced to them by the victors of the First World War. They also hated the Versailles treaty and thought of themselves as a humiliated nation.
Second the nation was sharply divided, there was no political power for the parties of the center, left- and rightwing-parties came together (if you also count the social-democrats as left of the center) above 70% of the votes.
In July 32 elections the Nazis (NSDAP) received 37,3 % of the votes (a gain of 19,0% compared to the 18,3% in 1930) but could not form a coalition. Soon afterwards the parlament was again dissolved and in the November 1932 elections the NSDAP received only 33,1% of the votes (they lost more than two million votes). In this political deadlock Hitler was appointed chancellor in January 1933 because he had the support of president Hindenburg and his camarilla, of the nationalist parties and of the high finance who all feared the communist / socialist threat and who thought of Hitler as the lesser evil.
After the Reichstag fire Hitler got powerful rights through emergency decrees and he got rid of the communists who got the blame for the arson. After another election in March 1933 the NSDAP got 43,9% of the votes. With the help of some votes from the nationalists (DNVP) and the christian Center party (Zentrum) the parlament enacted the Enabling Act which gave Hitler dictatorial powers and made the parlament irrelevant.
I would not call this excactly a democratic process – and of course regarding the comparison of Thaksin with Hitler I have to say that even if every accusation to the Antichri…err…Thaksin should be true you still can compare the two (but of course I know you are aware of that fact)
An artifact from Laos’ bloody history
Attached is another, more recent article by Fred Branfman, if you are interested.
Diplomatic exchange carried by The Nation
That Banjerd guy from Thammasart was quoted in the old BkkPost article (link provided by Patiwat #4) that “Hitler, despite being a dictator, had contributed a great deal to Germany…Hitler killed Jews but he did several things for his country. He was more useful for the country than Mr Thaksin was”.
What a sad state of affairs for Thai academia when a (presumably) senior academic lacks the most basic understanding of what happened to Germany (and the rest of Europe) under Hitler. This guy must simply have no credible standing anywhere outside the gates of Thammasart. Patiwat, how do you cope with these people?