External imposed sufficiency would be oppression, wouldn’t it?
So a sufficency policy could only come as either voluntary self-improvement or “external encouragement”. Since we are talking about policies – meaning laws or government actions – the interesting part is the “external encouragemetn”. How do you encourage someone? Through rewards, penalties and education.
Rewards:
What is the reward of self-sufficiency? As far as the commentators go – personal happiness. However, that is a rather abstract concept and not very easy to communicate. Ideally, you could point at societys and people who achieved exactly this. I don’t see any. Maybe some of the policies supporters could point them out?
Penalties:
Penalties could be the ceasing of government aid. I guess you could say that if everyone cares about himself that everyone is being cared for. That however, sounds more like super-capitalism than anything else.
Education:
Sounds good – getting people to help themselves through better education. After all, self-sufficiency requires people to be able to look after themselves (on a personal or community level).
What that could mean:
– No fees for public schools and universities, to educate people and make them immune to possible populist agendas.
– Cheap credits allowing children regardless of their origin to go to school and pursue a higher education (how about especially at Kasetsart, after all agricultural know-how is quintessential for farmer self-sufficiency)
How to finance it?
Credits to finance consume are probably a major faux pas for self-sufficiency advocates. The biggest credit of that kind probably exists in the form of credit cards. They are also being held responsible for the rise of the national debt-level. How about a fee or tax on financial institutes.
In short: Tax credit cards to finance farmer education.
Sounds good in theory, will never work in practice. The reason why people will hate it, is the same why self-sufficiency will never work: It’s easier to debate something than making sacrifices for it. I don’t see the political powerful miiddle and upper earning classes accepting 2% higher prices on their purchases because of this.
Veera Prateepchaikul of the Bangkok Post (February 5) has this to say on the “sufficiency economy”: “Sufficiency economy is not an economic theory but a philosophy on how to live. Like Buddhism, it preaches moderation and sustainability. It definitely does not reject capitalism or globalisation. For an individual, it means living within his or her means. If someone earns 10,000 baht a month, they should try not to spend all their earnings or borrow against them by using credit cards.”
Good, so “plenty of communist states provided excellent services” — but communism was nevertheless not great? How come? Does what you claim apply to the former Eastern Germany? Hardly, since shortage was the name of the game.
hpboothe, I think that you are forgetting that this is a blog and not a research paper. That you assume this to be passed off as useful policy discussion when it is simply a post regarding two peoples opinions only highlights hypocrisy in that you are making assumptions, yet critisising the entire academic state of Thai studies for doing so! Are you in Thai studies yourself?
Thanks for the feedback. I am very happy to report “opinion” (did I ever say it was fact?) because “opinion” is sociologically important. But for those who think that rural people vote with their pockets and not with their brains, this can be hard to accept.
“Last week I was talking to a woman in a rural village…”
Oh, a *rural* village, thanks for the clarification, professor. Urban villages can be so confusing.
“She had eloquent views…”
I also find people who agree with me to be eloquent.
“She said that the policy was, in effect, discouraging rural people from seeking higher education (rian sung)”
Because of course she conducted a field survey on a socioeconomically controlled sample set both before and after the coup to come to this conclusion, otherwise you might conclude that this may be based on her immediate circle and not representative – but the professor wouldn’t be so dumb as to make that mistake.
“her own daughter had recently graduated and obtained urban employment”
n=1, QED – nice field research, professor.
” An interesting contribution to the sufficiency economy debate.”
And not at all one woman’s opinion based on personal experience which may or may not be representative of anything in particular. Hey professor, my foot hurts, and I live in post-coup Thailand, therefore the coup has caused foot pain in Thailand. Can you present a paper on that at your next conference? You can quote me, “jaep mak mak”.
Mr Pig Latin – I’m glad my post amused you, but I’m not claiming to be anything at all. Is it a “cheap shot” to point out how a supposed “academic” employs shoddy research methodology and passes it off as a useful contribution to policy discussion? I’m sure Mr. Walker sees it that way. Notice how criticism of his scholarship is interpreted as disdain for rural voices (note responses 14 & 18). Such is the state of social science in Thailand, where random opinion backed up by nothing passes for policy dialogue – whether it’s coming from villagers or ersatz academics is of no consequence – they’re simply opinions, not reseached facts or considered analyses, and that people like Mr. Walker can’t tell the difference just shows how sad is the state of scholarship in the field. Good day to you sir.
[…] is a copy of the paper I presented at last week’s conference on Critical Transitions in the Mekong Region: Beyond the rural betrayal: lessons from the Thaksin era for the Mekong […]
Who is Paul Handley? What book is his master peace before the King never smiles?
I do not want to spend money for this book but might rent from library to know what did he say. If nothing is interesting in 50 pages, it is waste time to read.
Media usually annouces both truth and lies. Hope all readers use your vision and understand Thai culture. Time will help us to know the truth.
As my opinion, I had seen only his work hard&resposibility for all Thai people since I was born. Nobody who is in similar position, has done as Thai King. 60 years of his responsibility represents his heart and great kindness.
The value of human is measured by performance. Anyone wants to get rich or famous by blaming or taking advantage of others. Should we support?
Ethical and practical jumble is right. It seems like every time I take a look at the issue, I find some new point or perspective that doesn’t actually help in clarifying it much.
Your mention of adventure tourism brings to mind the book “Beyond the Last Village” that I read a couple months ago – that’s the one about Alan Rabinowitz experiences in exploring and establishing the nature reserves in Kachin State. He also touted adventure tourism as a means of bringing funds to the park, and talks about how the ‘development’ of the area for the reserves benefits the locals by improving transportation and bringing in supplies for them. What I couldn’t help thinking about was the extent to which this brought the military into these people’s lives, and whether or not that was a trade-off they’d have been willing to make, if given the chance.
So, to what extent could tourists pushing further into the frontier areas contribute to militarization? Even if the tour company makes an effort to do everything right, and keep the number of visitors limited – what happens if the government decides it’s a good business to get in on? Are these tourists (or even professionals entering these areas – Rabinowitz is case in point) creating a financial incentive for the government to get involved in an area where they’d otherwise have nothing to gain?
But, it seems I’m left only with questions again and no real answers – except to say that people traveling to these areas themselves need to be aware of the complexity of these issues. I’m not sure that’s actually an answer, though.
Srithanonchai, I never said that communism was great, nor that Sen scholarly achievements weren’t superb.
I merely said that Sen’s claim that he can’t “imagine a state providing hospitals, schools, and other social services without a capitalist economy first producing the surplus” is bull$hit.
Because plenty of communist states were able to provide excellent hospitals, schools, and other social services.
anonymous (II): May I ask whether your assessment of Sen’s work as “bullshit” is based on your own superior scholarly achievements–compared to those of Sen–or on ignorance?
“Thailand as we know it is coming to an end. A new Thailand will emerge.” > Isn’t this a journalistic exaggeration? I don’t see any substantial structural changes that would justify such an assessment. If anything, the changes since 1958 have truly fundamentally transformed Thailand “as we knew it” (well, not me, since I wasn’t around at that time). Any changes in the near future will be veryl small compared with that transformation, I guess.
nganadeeleg: seems to be about “sufficiency initiative”, then. Just sufficient and moderate. In the state sector, that has largely been achieved for a long time. In the private sector, people don’t seem to care about this concept. I also wonder whether there will be any “sufficiency police” that will decide whether this household or that company goes beyond moderation, reasonableness, and immunity. After all, people seem to have vastly different ideas about what–to them–is sufficient. To one person, a no-name watch will do; to another person, only a Rolex is sufficient.
I think the term “sufficiency” is indeed very problematic although it seems to lean forward positive meaning. It is very abstract and subjected to various interpretations and again it also depends on whose standard of “sufficiency” and in what aspect. There is no absolute right and wrong here and that rural lady also has her very rights to express her opinion about it. I am sure the King has a very good intention when he proposed the idea of “sufficiency economy” but what happens on the ground could turn to be poles apart. And we should not take something like the idea of “sufficiency economic” for granted as a ready-made good recipe.
anonymous: all right, if communism was that great, more people should be prepared to live under such a system, right? But they are not. And the system doesn’t seem to be able to compete with functionally differentiated systems. That’s why theu went down. Strange. Re my”ideology” — I don’t have any.
Those taking cheap shots at Andrew know more about him than he (and we) do you, so please if you are any of the salt you make claim to be, enlighten us as to who you are, that way the readership knows what everyones motivations are… (paymasters or not, hahahaha)
Aung Zaw asks what tourists can bring to Burma. How about USB flash drives with Torpark loaded onto them? http://www.torrify.com/ At five dollars a piece the drives can provide many Burmese internet users with risk free browsing of banned sites.
Daw Su doesn’t have to worry that Burmese will learn anything from anyone else – most banned sites are run by Burmese themselves.
i have a feeling those who are howling the most about what that enlightened villager said are the very people she is referring to — those condescending, discriminatory, elite urbanites. you should thank andrew for taking the cudgel for this woman. and perhaps most of you should step down from your pedestals and feel what is happening in the ground. among us perhaps, only andrew is literally, blogging from the field. so kudos to you andrew.
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The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
External imposed sufficiency would be oppression, wouldn’t it?
So a sufficency policy could only come as either voluntary self-improvement or “external encouragement”. Since we are talking about policies – meaning laws or government actions – the interesting part is the “external encouragemetn”. How do you encourage someone? Through rewards, penalties and education.
Rewards:
What is the reward of self-sufficiency? As far as the commentators go – personal happiness. However, that is a rather abstract concept and not very easy to communicate. Ideally, you could point at societys and people who achieved exactly this. I don’t see any. Maybe some of the policies supporters could point them out?
Penalties:
Penalties could be the ceasing of government aid. I guess you could say that if everyone cares about himself that everyone is being cared for. That however, sounds more like super-capitalism than anything else.
Education:
Sounds good – getting people to help themselves through better education. After all, self-sufficiency requires people to be able to look after themselves (on a personal or community level).
What that could mean:
– No fees for public schools and universities, to educate people and make them immune to possible populist agendas.
– Cheap credits allowing children regardless of their origin to go to school and pursue a higher education (how about especially at Kasetsart, after all agricultural know-how is quintessential for farmer self-sufficiency)
How to finance it?
Credits to finance consume are probably a major faux pas for self-sufficiency advocates. The biggest credit of that kind probably exists in the form of credit cards. They are also being held responsible for the rise of the national debt-level. How about a fee or tax on financial institutes.
In short: Tax credit cards to finance farmer education.
Sounds good in theory, will never work in practice. The reason why people will hate it, is the same why self-sufficiency will never work: It’s easier to debate something than making sacrifices for it. I don’t see the political powerful miiddle and upper earning classes accepting 2% higher prices on their purchases because of this.
Defending the sufficiency line
Veera Prateepchaikul of the Bangkok Post (February 5) has this to say on the “sufficiency economy”: “Sufficiency economy is not an economic theory but a philosophy on how to live. Like Buddhism, it preaches moderation and sustainability. It definitely does not reject capitalism or globalisation. For an individual, it means living within his or her means. If someone earns 10,000 baht a month, they should try not to spend all their earnings or borrow against them by using credit cards.”
Can it get more banal than this, I wonder?
Defending the sufficiency line
Good, so “plenty of communist states provided excellent services” — but communism was nevertheless not great? How come? Does what you claim apply to the former Eastern Germany? Hardly, since shortage was the name of the game.
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
hpboothe, I think that you are forgetting that this is a blog and not a research paper. That you assume this to be passed off as useful policy discussion when it is simply a post regarding two peoples opinions only highlights hypocrisy in that you are making assumptions, yet critisising the entire academic state of Thai studies for doing so! Are you in Thai studies yourself?
Good day to you sir!
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
Thanks for the feedback. I am very happy to report “opinion” (did I ever say it was fact?) because “opinion” is sociologically important. But for those who think that rural people vote with their pockets and not with their brains, this can be hard to accept.
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
“Last week I was talking to a woman in a rural village…”
Oh, a *rural* village, thanks for the clarification, professor. Urban villages can be so confusing.
“She had eloquent views…”
I also find people who agree with me to be eloquent.
“She said that the policy was, in effect, discouraging rural people from seeking higher education (rian sung)”
Because of course she conducted a field survey on a socioeconomically controlled sample set both before and after the coup to come to this conclusion, otherwise you might conclude that this may be based on her immediate circle and not representative – but the professor wouldn’t be so dumb as to make that mistake.
“her own daughter had recently graduated and obtained urban employment”
n=1, QED – nice field research, professor.
” An interesting contribution to the sufficiency economy debate.”
And not at all one woman’s opinion based on personal experience which may or may not be representative of anything in particular. Hey professor, my foot hurts, and I live in post-coup Thailand, therefore the coup has caused foot pain in Thailand. Can you present a paper on that at your next conference? You can quote me, “jaep mak mak”.
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
Mr Pig Latin – I’m glad my post amused you, but I’m not claiming to be anything at all. Is it a “cheap shot” to point out how a supposed “academic” employs shoddy research methodology and passes it off as a useful contribution to policy discussion? I’m sure Mr. Walker sees it that way. Notice how criticism of his scholarship is interpreted as disdain for rural voices (note responses 14 & 18). Such is the state of social science in Thailand, where random opinion backed up by nothing passes for policy dialogue – whether it’s coming from villagers or ersatz academics is of no consequence – they’re simply opinions, not reseached facts or considered analyses, and that people like Mr. Walker can’t tell the difference just shows how sad is the state of scholarship in the field. Good day to you sir.
Don’t mention the coup!
[…] is a copy of the paper I presented at last week’s conference on Critical Transitions in the Mekong Region: Beyond the rural betrayal: lessons from the Thaksin era for the Mekong […]
The King Never Smiles?
Who is Paul Handley? What book is his master peace before the King never smiles?
I do not want to spend money for this book but might rent from library to know what did he say. If nothing is interesting in 50 pages, it is waste time to read.
Media usually annouces both truth and lies. Hope all readers use your vision and understand Thai culture. Time will help us to know the truth.
As my opinion, I had seen only his work hard&resposibility for all Thai people since I was born. Nobody who is in similar position, has done as Thai King. 60 years of his responsibility represents his heart and great kindness.
The value of human is measured by performance. Anyone wants to get rich or famous by blaming or taking advantage of others. Should we support?
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
[…] on reactions to my previous post it seems that some New Mandala readers are alarmed┬ that rural people in Thailand actually have […]
Debating tours to Naga country, and other topics
Ethical and practical jumble is right. It seems like every time I take a look at the issue, I find some new point or perspective that doesn’t actually help in clarifying it much.
Your mention of adventure tourism brings to mind the book “Beyond the Last Village” that I read a couple months ago – that’s the one about Alan Rabinowitz experiences in exploring and establishing the nature reserves in Kachin State. He also touted adventure tourism as a means of bringing funds to the park, and talks about how the ‘development’ of the area for the reserves benefits the locals by improving transportation and bringing in supplies for them. What I couldn’t help thinking about was the extent to which this brought the military into these people’s lives, and whether or not that was a trade-off they’d have been willing to make, if given the chance.
So, to what extent could tourists pushing further into the frontier areas contribute to militarization? Even if the tour company makes an effort to do everything right, and keep the number of visitors limited – what happens if the government decides it’s a good business to get in on? Are these tourists (or even professionals entering these areas – Rabinowitz is case in point) creating a financial incentive for the government to get involved in an area where they’d otherwise have nothing to gain?
But, it seems I’m left only with questions again and no real answers – except to say that people traveling to these areas themselves need to be aware of the complexity of these issues. I’m not sure that’s actually an answer, though.
Defending the sufficiency line
Srithanonchai, I never said that communism was great, nor that Sen scholarly achievements weren’t superb.
I merely said that Sen’s claim that he can’t “imagine a state providing hospitals, schools, and other social services without a capitalist economy first producing the surplus” is bull$hit.
Because plenty of communist states were able to provide excellent hospitals, schools, and other social services.
Defending the sufficiency line
anonymous (II): May I ask whether your assessment of Sen’s work as “bullshit” is based on your own superior scholarly achievements–compared to those of Sen–or on ignorance?
Thitinan on battle of the titans
“Thailand as we know it is coming to an end. A new Thailand will emerge.” > Isn’t this a journalistic exaggeration? I don’t see any substantial structural changes that would justify such an assessment. If anything, the changes since 1958 have truly fundamentally transformed Thailand “as we knew it” (well, not me, since I wasn’t around at that time). Any changes in the near future will be veryl small compared with that transformation, I guess.
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
nganadeeleg: seems to be about “sufficiency initiative”, then. Just sufficient and moderate. In the state sector, that has largely been achieved for a long time. In the private sector, people don’t seem to care about this concept. I also wonder whether there will be any “sufficiency police” that will decide whether this household or that company goes beyond moderation, reasonableness, and immunity. After all, people seem to have vastly different ideas about what–to them–is sufficient. To one person, a no-name watch will do; to another person, only a Rolex is sufficient.
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
I think the term “sufficiency” is indeed very problematic although it seems to lean forward positive meaning. It is very abstract and subjected to various interpretations and again it also depends on whose standard of “sufficiency” and in what aspect. There is no absolute right and wrong here and that rural lady also has her very rights to express her opinion about it. I am sure the King has a very good intention when he proposed the idea of “sufficiency economy” but what happens on the ground could turn to be poles apart. And we should not take something like the idea of “sufficiency economic” for granted as a ready-made good recipe.
Defending the sufficiency line
anonymous: all right, if communism was that great, more people should be prepared to live under such a system, right? But they are not. And the system doesn’t seem to be able to compete with functionally differentiated systems. That’s why theu went down. Strange. Re my”ideology” — I don’t have any.
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
hpboothe you are quite hilarious.
Those taking cheap shots at Andrew know more about him than he (and we) do you, so please if you are any of the salt you make claim to be, enlighten us as to who you are, that way the readership knows what everyones motivations are… (paymasters or not, hahahaha)
The Irrawaddy on Burma tourism
Aung Zaw asks what tourists can bring to Burma. How about USB flash drives with Torpark loaded onto them? http://www.torrify.com/ At five dollars a piece the drives can provide many Burmese internet users with risk free browsing of banned sites.
Daw Su doesn’t have to worry that Burmese will learn anything from anyone else – most banned sites are run by Burmese themselves.
The poor stay poor, the rich stay rich
i have a feeling those who are howling the most about what that enlightened villager said are the very people she is referring to — those condescending, discriminatory, elite urbanites. you should thank andrew for taking the cudgel for this woman. and perhaps most of you should step down from your pedestals and feel what is happening in the ground. among us perhaps, only andrew is literally, blogging from the field. so kudos to you andrew.