Crowd management is often to do with controlling those in the “Feng Tau” (head shaking) movement I think… haha.
http://www.bedsupperclub.com/ Is this the sort of place you are referring too? As the club is seemingly quite elitist, wouldn’t an appropriate social etiquette apply?
From my perspective, the social maturity of newer-young people over the last 10-20 years (not that I am old, but I am affable) has decreased with more social restraints inhibiting self-determination to the point that few people are able to engage in conversation that would place them outside of their box (myspace profile).. especially with those that have something to loose (which I find elites often believe).
Whilst this interpretation is a sweeping generalisation, there are clubs in Causeway Bay, Hong Kong quite similar to what you have described.. and even taking into account the ‘new social constraints’ my opinion is that the club atmosphere is dictated by the people in it… and if people choose to go to a segregated bar with a selection policy in order to avoid “riff-raff” then this cannot really be said to be a new phenomenon in that there has always been elites in Thailand 🙂
This is probably far too simplistic in that I am not aware of Thai club culture so much… However, I feel that you are outlining a transnational situation…
This may not be directly relevant to the point of Andrew’s posting.
‘Much of the history of Thai rural society is a history of frontier settlement. The imagery of long established communities occupying “ancestral” lands is a popular one, but scratch the surface and you will often find relatively recent histories of migration and settlement’.
I know Andrew has Isan in mind when writing this paragraph, but I have a problem with it. I’m not sure academics can claim with confidence that ‘much of the history of Thai rural society is a history of frontier settlement’. And I always have a peculiar feeling when reading terms like image, imagery, and imagination.
Nich, it’s not my scene really, but I wonder if the policies of, and behaviour at, these nightclubs are that much different to exclusive nightclubs for the ‘in’ crowd in other major cities around the world.
1) At the place in question, I actually stood at the entry booth and watched people (not huge numbers, mind you) get turned away, on both that night and another night a few months later. Those turned away were an odd mix of foreigners inappropriately attired and people who didn’t “look” like they would be big-spenders. This place certainly refused entry and, on those nights, it was far from completely full. The entry policy seemed to be a half-hearted effort to manage the crowds, keep up profits and cultivate some kind of mystique.
Perhaps somebody who knows more about these kinds of clubs could offer some more analysis – I can only offer what I saw.
2) I don’t think that “low self-esteem” has anything to do with it. And it has much more to do with the structure, layout, and mentality of (some of) these clubs. No doubt there is inter-table mixing but it isn’t the same as one finds in the standard nightspots of many other cities.
But…I certainly don’t have all the answers and do appreciate the comments. As always, I welcome more ideas and insights.
… the kind of place where some of them have even been refused entry in the past. “Face control”, where only the most appropriately dressed, gratuitously wealthy or sublimely attractive can gain entry, is a real part of this “other” Bangkok night scene.
Is that really so? I’ve gone out in Bangkok for years, and the only places I’ve ever been refused entry are some hostess clubs on Silom (where only Japanese men may enter). I’m not particularly young, handsome, or well dressed, either.
Dance clubs frequented by the rich and beautiful (Santika, Q Bar, Bed, etc.), coyote clubs (Soprano, Forte, etc.), hostess clubs (Piano, Pent, etc.), and clubs targeted at college-aged kids (Ashley’s Rumor and the places in Liberty, Route and the places on RCA, Dance Fever and the places on Ratchada Soi 4) likewise never refuse entry. Although at some places, you might have to pay by the bottle.
How this form of night-clubbing has evolved, what it was like 10 or 20 years ago, or where it all began, are all questions that I would love to try to answer.
Not very different at all, although coyote bars didn’t exist back then. Before we had Santika, we had Taurus. Before we had Bed, we had NASA Spacedome. Piano seems to have been around forever.
If you go back further, it might be worthwhile to ask whether the idea of a hostess club came from China or Japan. The concept is very similar: you get drinks, conversastion, and maybe a kiss on the cheek – but never sex.
In this club, and, in my experience, at all similar places, very little effort is made to meet new people or to mingle. The pre-formed groups arrive together and, for the most part, they leave together.
No offense, but it seems as if you were surrounded by a bunch of people with low self-esteem. Although it’s not that common, it is possible to flirt and get to know people outside of your table. As long as you’re not a pig.
It seems reasonably obvious why these places (and their cultures) have been largely ignored by non-Thai writers.
For some reason, non-Thai writers seem obsessed with those dingy bar beers where they can get blowjobs in public. And those places where others do things with ping-pong balls that nature never intended.
[…] about life in Bangkok.┬ For interested readers, I have extracted the following edited┬ post┬ from the archives (the full version is available here).┬ This descriptive piece, titled “Drop it like […]
[…] I have extracted the following edited┬ post┬ from the archive (the full version is available here).┬ This descriptive piece, titled “Drop it like it’s hot…”, was originally […]
Meanwhile Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont told the National Legislative Assembly Thursday that forensics tests showed the New Year’s Eve bombs were not of the same type as those used by the separatists.
“Forensics tests found that the bombs were similar to those used in the south, but I can reassure you that they are not exactly the same,” Surayud Chulanont told the NLA.
“That is the reason why we have concluded that the bombings had nothing to do with the south, and rather that the ill-intentioned perpetrators are in Bangkok,”he said.
Is the king above the law? He himself once said he is not. But according to the law no one can have a lawsuit against him. Is this law illegal?, or simply nonsensical? Can there be such a concept of illegal law?
I distinctly remember reading in either the Post or the Nation just a few days after the bombings that bomb experts had concluded that the technical components of the bombs indicated that they were NOT the work of the insurgency in the South. Similar but not identical, and thus not likely the work of the southern insurgents. Does anyone else remember reading anything like that? Not that I suprised at the fluidity of interpretations about how much of a significance a small difference can make given the larger political interests at play.
Thank you for the info about the Han-Nom digital library project.
>I am newbie in Tham-Lanna, hoping to study
>social and economic history of Lanna.
I read/skimmed a long/encyclopedic paper by Hans Penth on rice in Lanna in the Journal of the Siam Society (v.86?-91?) this weekend. It was the best I’ve ever seen on pre-modern Lanna economic history. Volker Grabowsky’s work is great too.
Hopefully, Amartya Sen will come better prepared than he was in 1999, the last occasion that he gave a major address in Thailand. At that time, being questioned about sufficiency economy by Somkiat Onwimon, he professed ignorance. Cheers Sawarin.
‘Amartya Sen will receive a Lifetime Achievement Award from UNESCAP, with Princess Sirindhorn giving a key note address, and PM Surayud being in attendance. Sen will speak about “welfare economics.” Since UNDP praised the king’s sufficiency economy, and having all the above people in one event, one wonders how sufficiency economy will figure in this context’.
Amartya’s going to join this circus? What a tosser. Perhaps McCargo should extend his ‘network’ thesis (with details of how he built his Leeds-King Prachatipok network would also be nice). Anyway, I’ll be waiting to hear Amartya’s speech. keep me posted. Cheers Srithanonchai.
Thanks for the pdf file, very interesting topic. Especially the “active role in commercial transformation.” I wonder whether the “suspicion” ever reached the level of “open aggression.” In the debate about how autonomous villages are, you don’t have to go back very far, before there is very little data on this question to resolve hypotheses or speculation, at least in Burma. Dr. Ratanaporn Sethakul’s dissertation at Northern Illinois University and her recent economic history of northern Thailand in Thai are essential references. (I used the later in an economic history class I taught). Cross-country comparisons might be possible also, for example migration from Luzon to the Mindanao frontier in the Phillipines.
IMHO preserving those old manuscripts maybe requires convincing grant proposals which in turn rely on thorough surveys of existing published material and how making unpublished manuscripts would supplement and add value to the published stuff. I’ve been working slowly but surely through all the published Burmese stuff (c. 1350-1600), next microfilms, then paper books (parabaik) and palm leaf (bei-sa, bai-lan).
Amazing isn’t it. Nation doesn’t have anything on this yet. And for some reason the Post has this as only the third most important story filed nuder “General News”.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
Crowd management is often to do with controlling those in the “Feng Tau” (head shaking) movement I think… haha.
http://www.bedsupperclub.com/ Is this the sort of place you are referring too? As the club is seemingly quite elitist, wouldn’t an appropriate social etiquette apply?
From my perspective, the social maturity of newer-young people over the last 10-20 years (not that I am old, but I am affable) has decreased with more social restraints inhibiting self-determination to the point that few people are able to engage in conversation that would place them outside of their box (myspace profile).. especially with those that have something to loose (which I find elites often believe).
Whilst this interpretation is a sweeping generalisation, there are clubs in Causeway Bay, Hong Kong quite similar to what you have described.. and even taking into account the ‘new social constraints’ my opinion is that the club atmosphere is dictated by the people in it… and if people choose to go to a segregated bar with a selection policy in order to avoid “riff-raff” then this cannot really be said to be a new phenomenon in that there has always been elites in Thailand 🙂
This is probably far too simplistic in that I am not aware of Thai club culture so much… However, I feel that you are outlining a transnational situation…
Maybe someone from the Bullingdon Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club) could offer more analysis!
ps.. sorry for the repeated submission!
Isan in the north
This may not be directly relevant to the point of Andrew’s posting.
‘Much of the history of Thai rural society is a history of frontier settlement. The imagery of long established communities occupying “ancestral” lands is a popular one, but scratch the surface and you will often find relatively recent histories of migration and settlement’.
I know Andrew has Isan in mind when writing this paragraph, but I have a problem with it. I’m not sure academics can claim with confidence that ‘much of the history of Thai rural society is a history of frontier settlement’. And I always have a peculiar feeling when reading terms like image, imagery, and imagination.
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
Nich, it’s not my scene really, but I wonder if the policies of, and behaviour at, these nightclubs are that much different to exclusive nightclubs for the ‘in’ crowd in other major cities around the world.
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
Thanks Anon,
1) At the place in question, I actually stood at the entry booth and watched people (not huge numbers, mind you) get turned away, on both that night and another night a few months later. Those turned away were an odd mix of foreigners inappropriately attired and people who didn’t “look” like they would be big-spenders. This place certainly refused entry and, on those nights, it was far from completely full. The entry policy seemed to be a half-hearted effort to manage the crowds, keep up profits and cultivate some kind of mystique.
Perhaps somebody who knows more about these kinds of clubs could offer some more analysis – I can only offer what I saw.
2) I don’t think that “low self-esteem” has anything to do with it. And it has much more to do with the structure, layout, and mentality of (some of) these clubs. No doubt there is inter-table mixing but it isn’t the same as one finds in the standard nightspots of many other cities.
But…I certainly don’t have all the answers and do appreciate the comments. As always, I welcome more ideas and insights.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
… the kind of place where some of them have even been refused entry in the past. “Face control”, where only the most appropriately dressed, gratuitously wealthy or sublimely attractive can gain entry, is a real part of this “other” Bangkok night scene.
Is that really so? I’ve gone out in Bangkok for years, and the only places I’ve ever been refused entry are some hostess clubs on Silom (where only Japanese men may enter). I’m not particularly young, handsome, or well dressed, either.
Dance clubs frequented by the rich and beautiful (Santika, Q Bar, Bed, etc.), coyote clubs (Soprano, Forte, etc.), hostess clubs (Piano, Pent, etc.), and clubs targeted at college-aged kids (Ashley’s Rumor and the places in Liberty, Route and the places on RCA, Dance Fever and the places on Ratchada Soi 4) likewise never refuse entry. Although at some places, you might have to pay by the bottle.
How this form of night-clubbing has evolved, what it was like 10 or 20 years ago, or where it all began, are all questions that I would love to try to answer.
Not very different at all, although coyote bars didn’t exist back then. Before we had Santika, we had Taurus. Before we had Bed, we had NASA Spacedome. Piano seems to have been around forever.
If you go back further, it might be worthwhile to ask whether the idea of a hostess club came from China or Japan. The concept is very similar: you get drinks, conversastion, and maybe a kiss on the cheek – but never sex.
In this club, and, in my experience, at all similar places, very little effort is made to meet new people or to mingle. The pre-formed groups arrive together and, for the most part, they leave together.
No offense, but it seems as if you were surrounded by a bunch of people with low self-esteem. Although it’s not that common, it is possible to flirt and get to know people outside of your table. As long as you’re not a pig.
It seems reasonably obvious why these places (and their cultures) have been largely ignored by non-Thai writers.
For some reason, non-Thai writers seem obsessed with those dingy bar beers where they can get blowjobs in public. And those places where others do things with ping-pong balls that nature never intended.
From the New Mandala archives
[…] about life in Bangkok.┬ For interested readers, I have extracted the following edited┬ post┬ from the archives (the full version is available here).┬ This descriptive piece, titled “Drop it like […]
Drop it like it’s hot…
[…] I have extracted the following edited┬ post┬ from the archive (the full version is available here).┬ This descriptive piece, titled “Drop it like it’s hot…”, was originally […]
Southern insurgents now prime suspects
David:
…
Meanwhile Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont told the National Legislative Assembly Thursday that forensics tests showed the New Year’s Eve bombs were not of the same type as those used by the separatists.
“Forensics tests found that the bombs were similar to those used in the south, but I can reassure you that they are not exactly the same,” Surayud Chulanont told the NLA.
“That is the reason why we have concluded that the bombings had nothing to do with the south, and rather that the ill-intentioned perpetrators are in Bangkok,”he said.
…
The Nation 4 January 2007
A Thai Studies boycott?
Is the king above the law? He himself once said he is not. But according to the law no one can have a lawsuit against him. Is this law illegal?, or simply nonsensical? Can there be such a concept of illegal law?
Southern insurgents now prime suspects
I distinctly remember reading in either the Post or the Nation just a few days after the bombings that bomb experts had concluded that the technical components of the bombs indicated that they were NOT the work of the insurgency in the South. Similar but not identical, and thus not likely the work of the southern insurgents. Does anyone else remember reading anything like that? Not that I suprised at the fluidity of interpretations about how much of a significance a small difference can make given the larger political interests at play.
Isan in the north
Has anyone used their archive lately? What shape is it in?
TIC is former USOM library and office, they stored many valuable resources.
Very important question, who is the audience of the document ?
Are they Vietnamese born in Isan ?
Xat Lao
Thank you for the info about the Han-Nom digital library project.
>I am newbie in Tham-Lanna, hoping to study
>social and economic history of Lanna.
I read/skimmed a long/encyclopedic paper by Hans Penth on rice in Lanna in the Journal of the Siam Society (v.86?-91?) this weekend. It was the best I’ve ever seen on pre-modern Lanna economic history. Volker Grabowsky’s work is great too.
The practice of sufficiency economy
Hopefully, Amartya Sen will come better prepared than he was in 1999, the last occasion that he gave a major address in Thailand. At that time, being questioned about sufficiency economy by Somkiat Onwimon, he professed ignorance. Cheers Sawarin.
Isan in the north
This rivals Marx’s favorite Balzac’s “Les Paysans” in cultural insights except there are no landlords since it’s a frontier:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1417/1417.txt
>I notice from the markings that this document seems to come from >the Thailand Information Center of Chulalongkorn University.
Verified with them that all their materials are in the online catalog now marked as “TIC” :
http://library.car.chula.ac.th/
The practice of sufficiency economy
‘Amartya Sen will receive a Lifetime Achievement Award from UNESCAP, with Princess Sirindhorn giving a key note address, and PM Surayud being in attendance. Sen will speak about “welfare economics.” Since UNDP praised the king’s sufficiency economy, and having all the above people in one event, one wonders how sufficiency economy will figure in this context’.
Amartya’s going to join this circus? What a tosser. Perhaps McCargo should extend his ‘network’ thesis (with details of how he built his Leeds-King Prachatipok network would also be nice). Anyway, I’ll be waiting to hear Amartya’s speech. keep me posted. Cheers Srithanonchai.
Isan in the north
I notice from the markings that this document seems to come from the Thailand Information Center of Chulalongkorn University.
Has anyone used their archive lately? What shape is it in?
Xat Lao
Hopefully they will be digitised like this wonderful repository of old Burmese manuscripts in Japan:
Once Thaksin promised to grant money for National Library but ……
There are “The Fragile Palm Leaves Foundation” support by Max Planck and Pali Text Society.
http://www.palitext.com/subpages/project.htm
http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/content/buddhism
In Thailand, I never heard about digitised project. I heard only Han-Nom digital Library.
Now, I am newbie in Tham-Lanna, hoping to study social and economic history of Lanna
Isan in the north
Thanks for the pdf file, very interesting topic. Especially the “active role in commercial transformation.” I wonder whether the “suspicion” ever reached the level of “open aggression.” In the debate about how autonomous villages are, you don’t have to go back very far, before there is very little data on this question to resolve hypotheses or speculation, at least in Burma. Dr. Ratanaporn Sethakul’s dissertation at Northern Illinois University and her recent economic history of northern Thailand in Thai are essential references. (I used the later in an economic history class I taught). Cross-country comparisons might be possible also, for example migration from Luzon to the Mindanao frontier in the Phillipines.
Xat Lao
“Contrary to Thailand, documents in National Archive and National Library start to decay and disappear.”
Hopefully they will be digitised like this wonderful repository of old Burmese manuscripts in Japan:
http://taweb.aichi-u.ac.jp/DMSEH/index.html
IMHO preserving those old manuscripts maybe requires convincing grant proposals which in turn rely on thorough surveys of existing published material and how making unpublished manuscripts would supplement and add value to the published stuff. I’ve been working slowly but surely through all the published Burmese stuff (c. 1350-1600), next microfilms, then paper books (parabaik) and palm leaf (bei-sa, bai-lan).
Southern insurgents now prime suspects
Amazing isn’t it. Nation doesn’t have anything on this yet. And for some reason the Post has this as only the third most important story filed nuder “General News”.