Jon Fernquest raises some excellent points, and I can offer him some comfort. Since late 2005 I have been engaged in a project to scan the linguistic papers of Gordon Luce, which exceed more than 8000 pages. With agreement of the NLA the scanned images will be published soon at: http://sealang.net/ by the Centre for Research in Computational Linguistics. The same centre is also preparing a project to publish on-line the corpus of SEAsian classical inscriptions at http://sealang.net/classic/
The extensive Coedes and Luce collections are certainly magnificent yet under-utilised resources, and researchers should note that the NLA offers fellowships for travel and accommodation in Canberra to facilitate research access to the collections, see: http://www.nla.gov.au/grants/haroldwhite/
Also — please enlighten me to the intellectual elite not residing in Australia? Do you think that a nation of 21 million should contain more of these smarty-pants? Basically we’re all convicts here remember… We’ve got so much space we’re in prison!
Anon … LKY did nothing “single-handedly”. One could go on about the roles of Goh Keng Swee and Dr Wensimius in post-1965 Singapore’s transformation, but there is a better way to make this point. In 1999, there was a book launch in Singapore for a volume called “Lee’s Lieutenants: Singapore’s Old Guard”. The book–very good–profiles a series of those who had played important roles in post-1965 policy-making and administration. The organizers of the launch wanted, naturally, some of those profiled (and still living) to attend. All refused. Why? Resentment at having been shoved aside by an LKY eager to claim full credit for what Singapore had become … The bottom line on this honorary degree is quite simple. Are universities like the ANU meant to be custodians and promoters of certain values or not? If so, do those who manage the ANU believe that LKY shares the universities values? If they do believe this, let them grant the degree in good conscience. But if they do believe this, they will, I fear, believe anything. Even the most cursory examination of LKY’s own attitude toward higher education makes clear the farcical nature of this planned gesture on the ANU’s part …
nganadeeleg: You might include Duncan McCargo’s edited book (Rethinking Thailand’s Southern Violence. Singapore: NUS Press, 2007 ) into the category of “recent reports.” It advertises its position re who is the main culprit by filling the cover with a picture of Thaksin’s face.
This choice would not have been made by a decidedely non-mainstream report authored by Marc Askew that is forthcoming at the East West Centre Washington. Askew sees the phenomenon as something very different from what we had in the past. To him, the insurgency is a new phenomenon, and (besides other factors at work) radicalized Islamist militants are the main culprits.
Pig Latin: Putting Lee Kuan Yew into the category of “tyrant” seems grossly reductionist to me. Do you truly think that Lee and Mugabe are basically the same?
Hopefully, in part 2, Mr. Abuza will outline some strategies for how the problem should be handled.
If his analysis is correct it looks like a job for the ‘coalition of the willing’ which could mean things will get a lot worse before they get better.
I wonder which of the recent reports is closest to the actual situation ? (ICG, Human Rights Watch & Zachary Abuza)
Police probe six cases of lese majeste against ousted premier
Police are investigating on six cases of lese majeste against deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, one of which was his interview with CNN in Singapore early this year, Police Chief Pol Gen Seripisut Temiyavej said Tuesday.
Three of the cases were already put forward for consideration to the public prosecutors.
First was when Thaksin talked to a group of taxi drivers on December 5, 2005, second was when he said in his weekly radio talk and when flags with “Long Live the King” were used to receive his visit.
Public prosecutors have asked police to collect and provide more evidences on the cases.
Police still investigated other cases, one of which was Thaksin’s interview with CNN in Singapore early this year, Seripisut said.
The police chief was speaking in a press conference to report police’s works during six months after the military junta seized the power from Thaksin.
One thing is for sure — if a few Australian academics in their fields had achieved what Lee Kuan Yu has achieved in his, Australia would not only be a place were foreigners can get their cheap degrees, but would also be a choice destination of the intellectual elite of the world. (Just to put things a little bit in perspective…)
“Shorts or Sandals. The only clothing check that I have seen performed in “young” Bangkok nightlife are no open shoes and no shorts for men (no flipflops either). However, this is usually only the case in finer / dance venues.”
So, these places then seem to have the same values as university libraries, where knowledge gathering also depends on your clothing.
People do get turned away, though the reasons are quite different from face (or more important: gender) controls in Europe.
Primary reasons are:
– No ID. Some clubs enforce a strict policy. Even if you look 35, if you don’t have an ID, you don’t get in. From what I heard clubs get fined in case they get checked and someone doesn’t have an ID (sufficient already, even though they might be old enough)
– Shorts or Sandals. The only clothing check that I have seen performed in “young” Bangkok nightlife are no open shoes and no shorts for men (no flipflops either). However, this is usually only the case in finer / dance venues.
Those observations are based on a broad range from clubs – from “working class” drink holes to “hiso” ones like Bed, Narcissus or Scirocco and maybe a 100 nights out in Bangkok (I guess I do enjoy nightlife). I got no idea about massage parlours / hostess clubs / etc. though.
Intoxitated? A guys only group? Harassment? I’ve seen that tolerated and unless it’s violence haven’t seen anyone getting kicked out.
Maybe the existence and acceptance of “massage parlours” make it less important for clubs to draw in girls, since guys are more likely to come in here than in the west if there are few girls. After all, they can and might get that somewhere else if they want.
A big dancefloor like in Europe? And who would be the self-confident people who are the first to dance in the middle of it (or the drunks, or the ones who linger around close to it with a beer in their hand…).
First off, let me say I aint a Lee Kuan Yu fan. I think Singaporean politics is boring at best and depressing at worst.
But you got to give a guy credit: he single-handedly turned a 3rd world nation with no natural resources into a 1st world nation within 40 years. That exceeds even the miraculous achievement of Japan. No other country in the world has matched that achievement. And he did it with a mostly clean government and a relatively stable multi-cultural society. Which puts shames Japan, Korea, Thailand, the Philipines, and Burma to shame.
So yeah, the guy isn’t perfect. But pretty much every other statesman of the past 40 years (and yes, I’m including HMK Bhumibol in that comparison as well) has done a helluva lot worse.
A reason that there is not much research on these places is that cultural studies (and to a lesser extent sociology), two disciplines that have the tools to research them, are not widely taught at Thai universities.
The architecture of these places is different – no dance floor: I’ve heard this is because previously (1960s) dancing places were illegal, or needed a different license, but I’m not sure if this is true.
People gather around tables and not bars – because people always come in groups, part of the more communal culture, and also because normally one person pays for the whole table, part of the pervaisve hierarchy.
As a teaser to this two-part article, which is based on a book manuscript of the above title:
Their ideology has also never been so Islamist. The insurgents today are fundamentally different than previous generations. In addition to the broadened targeting of women, children, monks and the de facto ethnic cleansing that has transpired, the Islamist agenda is manifest in other ways. They are not out to win hearts and minds: they are thuggish and brutal and are imposing their values on the community. Over 50 per cent of their victims have been fellow Muslims. They have a broadened their definition of collaborator to include Muslims who reject militant values and seek accommodation with the Thai state. They have killed moderate clerics and warned others to not perform funerals for the Muslims they kill and deem not to be real Muslims, the Wahhabi practice of “takfiri”. They have shuttered businesses on Fridays and killed Islamic teachers who teach at schools that receive government funding and teach mixed curricula.
Tanabe, Shigeharu: Land Reclamation in the Chao Phraya Delta, in: Thailand. A Rice-Growing Society, ed. by Yoneo Ishii. Honolulu: The University Press of Hawaii, 1978, pp. 40 – 82
Johnston, David Bruce: Rural Society and the Rice Economy in Thailand, 1880 – 1930. Ph. D. Yale University, 1975 455 pp.
The constitution itself says that the King is inviolate. And if the King doesn’t like the constitution, he can rip it up, or ask his soliders to rip it up.
Don’t forget: in Thailand, the palace would have you believe that kings bestow constitutions to their people, whereas in Europe, the people used constitutions to constrict kings.
– Most places will not let you in if you’re wearing flipflops. And shorts are usually frowned upon (unless if it’s a girl and she’s wearing short shorts). I’ve never been to a place that didn’t let me in wearing sneakers, jeans, and a t-shirt.
I’m not really sure what a “not big spender” looks like. In a place like Bangkok, you don’t have to spend that much in order to look nice. I’ve gone shopping with girls who spent 150 baht (50 for a tank top, 100 for a skirt) and still ended up looking like a million bucks.
– On busy nights, I get hit on like mad at 70’s Bar on Langsuan. But then again, 90% of the people on the floor there are either girls or gay. I do not look like a model.
But I understand what you’re saying, Nick. The whole “go with friends, get a table and a bottle, and dance around the table or dance with your friends on the floor”-thing puts some constraints on meeting up with new people.
The trick to having fun is making sure you invite the “right” group of friends. If everybody knows everybody else, that sort of makes things a bit boring, so it’s best to invite a bunch of people who might be meeting each other for the first time or might not know each other too well.
Another trick is to jam one group of friends with some other friends who just happen to be in the same club. The two groups mingle, and new friendships are made (or not).
And I’ve had very good results buying drinks for others. Not the whole western style “can I buy you a drink”-cliche. I’m talking about seeing a table full of nice girls, asking the waiter to send them a bottle of something nice, and then being ready if any sparks fly. This usually works best if one table is mostly full of guys and the other table is full of girls.
I’ve had very very good results getting lady friends at my table to help me hit on girls at other tables. This helps a lot.
If it’s pickup clubs that you’re looking for, I’m sure that they exist somewhere or another in Bangkok. But it’s Bangkok – I’ve never found the need to go to one.
– Bed Supper Club used to be fun, but these days is filled with sikh, farang, and expensive whores. Same with Q-Bar. It’s gotten to the point where I don’t want to bring lady friends there anymore.
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Jon Fernquest raises some excellent points, and I can offer him some comfort. Since late 2005 I have been engaged in a project to scan the linguistic papers of Gordon Luce, which exceed more than 8000 pages. With agreement of the NLA the scanned images will be published soon at: http://sealang.net/ by the Centre for Research in Computational Linguistics. The same centre is also preparing a project to publish on-line the corpus of SEAsian classical inscriptions at http://sealang.net/classic/
The extensive Coedes and Luce collections are certainly magnificent yet under-utilised resources, and researchers should note that the NLA offers fellowships for travel and accommodation in Canberra to facilitate research access to the collections, see: http://www.nla.gov.au/grants/haroldwhite/
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
Also — please enlighten me to the intellectual elite not residing in Australia? Do you think that a nation of 21 million should contain more of these smarty-pants? Basically we’re all convicts here remember… We’ve got so much space we’re in prison!
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
Anon … LKY did nothing “single-handedly”. One could go on about the roles of Goh Keng Swee and Dr Wensimius in post-1965 Singapore’s transformation, but there is a better way to make this point. In 1999, there was a book launch in Singapore for a volume called “Lee’s Lieutenants: Singapore’s Old Guard”. The book–very good–profiles a series of those who had played important roles in post-1965 policy-making and administration. The organizers of the launch wanted, naturally, some of those profiled (and still living) to attend. All refused. Why? Resentment at having been shoved aside by an LKY eager to claim full credit for what Singapore had become … The bottom line on this honorary degree is quite simple. Are universities like the ANU meant to be custodians and promoters of certain values or not? If so, do those who manage the ANU believe that LKY shares the universities values? If they do believe this, let them grant the degree in good conscience. But if they do believe this, they will, I fear, believe anything. Even the most cursory examination of LKY’s own attitude toward higher education makes clear the farcical nature of this planned gesture on the ANU’s part …
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
The same? Only in that man by nature is tyrannical. The point I’ve failed to articulate has been that honorary degrees can be taken away…
Grossly reductionist? Well how else would one refer to big brother number one.. “Mr Singapore”?
Intelligence?
nganadeeleg: You might include Duncan McCargo’s edited book (Rethinking Thailand’s Southern Violence. Singapore: NUS Press, 2007 ) into the category of “recent reports.” It advertises its position re who is the main culprit by filling the cover with a picture of Thaksin’s face.
This choice would not have been made by a decidedely non-mainstream report authored by Marc Askew that is forthcoming at the East West Centre Washington. Askew sees the phenomenon as something very different from what we had in the past. To him, the insurgency is a new phenomenon, and (besides other factors at work) radicalized Islamist militants are the main culprits.
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
Pig Latin: Putting Lee Kuan Yew into the category of “tyrant” seems grossly reductionist to me. Do you truly think that Lee and Mugabe are basically the same?
Intelligence?
Hopefully, in part 2, Mr. Abuza will outline some strategies for how the problem should be handled.
If his analysis is correct it looks like a job for the ‘coalition of the willing’ which could mean things will get a lot worse before they get better.
I wonder which of the recent reports is closest to the actual situation ? (ICG, Human Rights Watch & Zachary Abuza)
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
Robert Mugabe will have his taken away…
Srithanonchai, the field of being a tyrant?
Lee Kuan Yew
Bachelor of Tyranny (1:1 hons)?
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
“Shorts or Sandals not allowed.”
So it’s like any club in the world.
If you really want to wear shorts then you may try some
‘clubs’ in Samet, Samui or Phuket ;-p
Sonthi on manners and democracy
Thaksin and lese majeste update:
Police probe six cases of lese majeste against ousted premier
Police are investigating on six cases of lese majeste against deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, one of which was his interview with CNN in Singapore early this year, Police Chief Pol Gen Seripisut Temiyavej said Tuesday.
Three of the cases were already put forward for consideration to the public prosecutors.
First was when Thaksin talked to a group of taxi drivers on December 5, 2005, second was when he said in his weekly radio talk and when flags with “Long Live the King” were used to receive his visit.
Public prosecutors have asked police to collect and provide more evidences on the cases.
Police still investigated other cases, one of which was Thaksin’s interview with CNN in Singapore early this year, Seripisut said.
The police chief was speaking in a press conference to report police’s works during six months after the military junta seized the power from Thaksin.
The Nation 20 March 2007
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
One thing is for sure — if a few Australian academics in their fields had achieved what Lee Kuan Yu has achieved in his, Australia would not only be a place were foreigners can get their cheap degrees, but would also be a choice destination of the intellectual elite of the world. (Just to put things a little bit in perspective…)
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
“Shorts or Sandals. The only clothing check that I have seen performed in “young” Bangkok nightlife are no open shoes and no shorts for men (no flipflops either). However, this is usually only the case in finer / dance venues.”
So, these places then seem to have the same values as university libraries, where knowledge gathering also depends on your clothing.
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
People do get turned away, though the reasons are quite different from face (or more important: gender) controls in Europe.
Primary reasons are:
– No ID. Some clubs enforce a strict policy. Even if you look 35, if you don’t have an ID, you don’t get in. From what I heard clubs get fined in case they get checked and someone doesn’t have an ID (sufficient already, even though they might be old enough)
– Shorts or Sandals. The only clothing check that I have seen performed in “young” Bangkok nightlife are no open shoes and no shorts for men (no flipflops either). However, this is usually only the case in finer / dance venues.
Those observations are based on a broad range from clubs – from “working class” drink holes to “hiso” ones like Bed, Narcissus or Scirocco and maybe a 100 nights out in Bangkok (I guess I do enjoy nightlife). I got no idea about massage parlours / hostess clubs / etc. though.
Intoxitated? A guys only group? Harassment? I’ve seen that tolerated and unless it’s violence haven’t seen anyone getting kicked out.
Maybe the existence and acceptance of “massage parlours” make it less important for clubs to draw in girls, since guys are more likely to come in here than in the west if there are few girls. After all, they can and might get that somewhere else if they want.
A big dancefloor like in Europe? And who would be the self-confident people who are the first to dance in the middle of it (or the drunks, or the ones who linger around close to it with a beer in their hand…).
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
First off, let me say I aint a Lee Kuan Yu fan. I think Singaporean politics is boring at best and depressing at worst.
But you got to give a guy credit: he single-handedly turned a 3rd world nation with no natural resources into a 1st world nation within 40 years. That exceeds even the miraculous achievement of Japan. No other country in the world has matched that achievement. And he did it with a mostly clean government and a relatively stable multi-cultural society. Which puts shames Japan, Korea, Thailand, the Philipines, and Burma to shame.
So yeah, the guy isn’t perfect. But pretty much every other statesman of the past 40 years (and yes, I’m including HMK Bhumibol in that comparison as well) has done a helluva lot worse.
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
A reason that there is not much research on these places is that cultural studies (and to a lesser extent sociology), two disciplines that have the tools to research them, are not widely taught at Thai universities.
The architecture of these places is different – no dance floor: I’ve heard this is because previously (1960s) dancing places were illegal, or needed a different license, but I’m not sure if this is true.
People gather around tables and not bars – because people always come in groups, part of the more communal culture, and also because normally one person pays for the whole table, part of the pervaisve hierarchy.
Intelligence?
Muslim South:
On the “Conspiracy of Silence” in the mainstream interpretations of the insurgency see Zachary Abuza:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/20/opinion/opinion_30029731.php
As a teaser to this two-part article, which is based on a book manuscript of the above title:
Their ideology has also never been so Islamist. The insurgents today are fundamentally different than previous generations. In addition to the broadened targeting of women, children, monks and the de facto ethnic cleansing that has transpired, the Islamist agenda is manifest in other ways. They are not out to win hearts and minds: they are thuggish and brutal and are imposing their values on the community. Over 50 per cent of their victims have been fellow Muslims. They have a broadened their definition of collaborator to include Muslims who reject militant values and seek accommodation with the Thai state. They have killed moderate clerics and warned others to not perform funerals for the Muslims they kill and deem not to be real Muslims, the Wahhabi practice of “takfiri”. They have shuttered businesses on Fridays and killed Islamic teachers who teach at schools that receive government funding and teach mixed curricula.
Isan in the north
For the Chao Praya Delta see, e.g.
Tanabe, Shigeharu: Land Reclamation in the Chao Phraya Delta, in: Thailand. A Rice-Growing Society, ed. by Yoneo Ishii. Honolulu: The University Press of Hawaii, 1978, pp. 40 – 82
Johnston, David Bruce: Rural Society and the Rice Economy in Thailand, 1880 – 1930. Ph. D. Yale University, 1975 455 pp.
A Thai Studies boycott?
To a modern Phrai:
The constitution itself says that the King is inviolate. And if the King doesn’t like the constitution, he can rip it up, or ask his soliders to rip it up.
Don’t forget: in Thailand, the palace would have you believe that kings bestow constitutions to their people, whereas in Europe, the people used constitutions to constrict kings.
From the New Mandala archive: Bangkok at night
– Most places will not let you in if you’re wearing flipflops. And shorts are usually frowned upon (unless if it’s a girl and she’s wearing short shorts). I’ve never been to a place that didn’t let me in wearing sneakers, jeans, and a t-shirt.
I’m not really sure what a “not big spender” looks like. In a place like Bangkok, you don’t have to spend that much in order to look nice. I’ve gone shopping with girls who spent 150 baht (50 for a tank top, 100 for a skirt) and still ended up looking like a million bucks.
– On busy nights, I get hit on like mad at 70’s Bar on Langsuan. But then again, 90% of the people on the floor there are either girls or gay. I do not look like a model.
But I understand what you’re saying, Nick. The whole “go with friends, get a table and a bottle, and dance around the table or dance with your friends on the floor”-thing puts some constraints on meeting up with new people.
The trick to having fun is making sure you invite the “right” group of friends. If everybody knows everybody else, that sort of makes things a bit boring, so it’s best to invite a bunch of people who might be meeting each other for the first time or might not know each other too well.
Another trick is to jam one group of friends with some other friends who just happen to be in the same club. The two groups mingle, and new friendships are made (or not).
And I’ve had very good results buying drinks for others. Not the whole western style “can I buy you a drink”-cliche. I’m talking about seeing a table full of nice girls, asking the waiter to send them a bottle of something nice, and then being ready if any sparks fly. This usually works best if one table is mostly full of guys and the other table is full of girls.
I’ve had very very good results getting lady friends at my table to help me hit on girls at other tables. This helps a lot.
If it’s pickup clubs that you’re looking for, I’m sure that they exist somewhere or another in Bangkok. But it’s Bangkok – I’ve never found the need to go to one.
– Bed Supper Club used to be fun, but these days is filled with sikh, farang, and expensive whores. Same with Q-Bar. It’s gotten to the point where I don’t want to bring lady friends there anymore.
Southern insurgents now prime suspects
It’s been nothing but a farce, and Thaksin must be reveling in it all.