If the ‘PAD’ get their way, then that will ensure that Issaan can never sway the result of an election in this country again. There has been a call for 30% of MPs appointed (by?); that call was later upped to 50%.
Whatever the final figure, the appointed members will always have more power than elected members.
What we are witnessing is an attack on an electoral system of government. Yes it was flawed, but so are others e.g U.S. 2001.
If the government steps aside and fresh elections are held, we’ll be repeating this scenario in a year or two.
If the courts have their way, the ‘PAD’ will have their way, and the electoral system will be destroyed.
The only solution is the ’73, ’76, ’92 solution: the people hit the streets. No, I don’t believe ‘the people’ are on the streets yet, but if they do, there’ll be blood, but there might be a resolution to the ongoing stalemate: resumption of the 1997 Constitiution and greater representation of the population’s interests.
Bosunji – I don’t know about other posters, but I’m not American. “Go back to America!” … Bit difficult to get out of Thailand at the moment …
The last thing reasonable people want to see is death and destruction, although we’re already seeing the death and destruction of the Thai economy. If you understand irony, then you’ll appreciate that, paradoxically, the people who are going to be hurt most by the airport closures are, in fact, hard-working middle-class PAD supporters – or at least those who currently have some sort of job in the tourism and travel industry. At least many factory / construction workers / taxi drivers have the last resort option of returning to their villages.
That said, how does a hard-working middle-class PAD supporter find the time to leave their job to go and sit at the airports for five days (and counting)? Hmm. So just who ARE all those people sitting on their mats?
A closing thought – watching Reuang Lao Chao Nee at the moment (popular morning news programme on Channel 3), I see Sorayut and the other anchors are wearing purple. Is purple the new yellow, I wonder?
Quote from Chris Topp”… coup, however, would need the tacit approval of King Bhumibol Adulyadej, but he is said to be ailing, with many decisions being made by Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn. The prince is a good mate of Thaksin, so it is unlikely he will want to get rid of the Government that is seen as Thaksin’s puppet. ”
I find the above quote weird… Hasn’t xxx been trying to topple the Somchai government all along??I want to say more but I can’t due to the restriction everyone in Thailand is aware of…what do people think?
Is it possible to ask for help from the UN (or international community?) to use their commando unit or something to remove the PAD from the airports with none or as little bloodshed as possible? Someone from Prachathai suggested that Thai police force is way too ineffective to deal with this. And the military, of course, refuses to help. I fully agree with this..I ‘m of the opinion that without international or UN interference the crisis will worsen and loss of lives is almost a certainty. Iused to be against this government (but never pro-PAD, mind you,)seeing it as Taskin’s proxy, but now I realize this is irrelevant now coz greater danger seems to lie in the so-called ‘invisible’ hands who seem to pull strings behind the PAD. I agree that politicians can be voted out if people don’t like them, but the military and other highly conservative groups will never be rid from Thailand once they succeed in securing firm control in their hands. This morning i listened to ABC radio which seems to give a rather favourable coverage of the PAD airport seige and stated that PAD protestors at the airport are largely non-violent as constrasted to the Red Shirst who are more aggressive and provocative (of course the ABC shows sypathy for Australian tourists stranded in Thailand)I ‘m fully aware that there are certainly violent thugs (perhaps paid by someone) among the redshirts but then after taking into account everything, the PAD and the force(s) behind it emerge as more dangerous and threatening to democracy, freedom of speech and critical thinking. Perhaps the ABC should try more to give a more balanced coverage abt the PAD. By the way, I’m Thai.
Couldn’t agree more Charles F . I believe you’re right about both Hla Oo and the Burmese situation. The sort of Burmese nationalism, or more correctly chauvinism, that Hla Oo manifests is largely confined to the military. It’s different from that of the rest of the Burmese nation who in the military mindset owes the Tatmadaw their very existence, not just the minorities but the entire nation. Burmese militarism too has a long history. I’d like to see them invade one of the neighbours if only to find out the reality of Ne Win’s infamous “sword against sword and spear against spear” speech in the aftermath of the July 7, 1962 massacre of unarmed Rangoon University students. Makes one wonder what a couple of container loads of AK 47s and RPGs would have done or still do. The people by and large can only identify with that part of nationalism that is anti-colonialist, anti-imperialist.
And sorry, you just can’t blame the ongoing civil war on foreigners any more than you could in the beginning since there were and still are reasons inherent in the conflict not just between the Burman ruling class and the minorities but within the majority Burmans themselves. Just as today’s Tatmadaw has no right to behave like the entire nation is indebted to them forever and ever for independence and for holding the union together so only they are entitled to rule for eternity. The game is well and truly up.
How can Burma, a pariah and failed state that is blatantly bent on exploiting and repressing its own populace, have a normal relationship with the rest of the world? The military believes they can run the entire show all by themselves with a gun to the head of the nation they rule over. How successful they’ve been so far, except in safeguarding their own grip on power, is plain for all to see. That’s also the difference between them and states like Vietnam and Cambodia today – the lack of breathing space, internal peace (genuine peace for goodness sake, not cutting deals with certain groups for mutual enrichment of the leaders) and even a bit of trickling down of prosperity.
It’s all very well talking about day-to-day village level resistance and even making a meal of it in the form of academic discourse and research. And although it’s definitely worth pointing out and extremely important in its own right all through history everywhere in the world – particularly to those on the receiving end of state repression, but dismissed by the rulers who get to write the history – it is after all natural and indeed inevitable, human nature being what it is. But since when did this ever bring about any real change anywhere anytime soon. Burmese have done it for generations already. It’s human survival instinct and ingenuity, not that they have a choice. Peasant rebellions, there’s been a few, from colonial times onwards when push comes to shove.
The history of the world is full of spilling of blood, guts and tears in the fight for the rights that westerners, many forgetful of the historic struggles of their own forebears, nowadays take for granted. Sure it would hurt liberal sensibilities if it’s portrayed as anything but a gradual evolutionary process. Who cares, certainly neither the right nor the left? And if the liberals think they’ve actually reached the “end of history” where the “old politics” is gone forever in their smug little world they have another think coming. Its demise has been greatly exaggerated.
Fragmented, individual and low level resistance often goes with low intensity conflict (LIC) or armed resistance also fragmented in the case of Burma. But this can go on and on forever as we’ve seen from long experience until some benevolent despot in shining armour shows up on the distant horizon in this particular instance, and goodness knows how often how many Burmese prostrate on their knees have prayed in front of the Buddha for this. It’s just not good enough. One day…. as Charles F. said….. and it cannot come soon enough.
No, I don’t cringe when I think about Taksin’s influence over Thai politics. I see Taksin as his country’s incarnation of a master politician with dominant control of a political patronage machine. Not, maybe, a representation of the most attractive of political ideals, but certainly not uniquely evil and certainly not undemocratic. On the other hand the PAD seems yet another incarnation of the ‘Thais aren’t ready for democracy’ forces that have consistently blocked any kind of long term political process in the country. Who says the Thai electorate wouldn’t get tired enough of Taksin and his cronies to vote them out in a couple of years? Who says that some other political entrepreneur wouldn’t come along and build his or her own machine and throw him out? The PAD and before them the army or the Privy Council or who ever the hell it is in the shadowy back rooms don’t want to chance that? Well, I’m bored with these people. I was enjoying Taksin.
The PAD admit to the world they are “Suicide Protestors.” Moderation? Where is the moderation in that? The sad thing is that onces the bullets fly, those who are enforcing the law will be villified by the Thai public for not being moderate.
Restraint by those enforcing the law in recent years indeed deserves recognition. Restraint by the PAD does not. It is immoral for the PAD to force Thai security forces to choose between nothing or pulling the trigger for the suicide of a protestor. The PAD tells the world its people are willing to die for the cause. Doesn’t the morality of the cause matter? Don’t the tactics of protesting have to pass a moral test as well?
Gandhi led protestors against the immorality of colonial rule. His tactics were broad-based: economic, political, altering international opinion. MLK led protestors to claim legitimate rights under a constitution that demanded full recognition. When his protestors clashed with security forces, being handcuffed, dragged, and imprisoned were planned tactics that forced the hand of the legal system and public opinion. Forcing legal reform, not seizure of government proved effective. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for 27 years for his cause.
Yes, I know. Thailand is different. But is it so different that its considered moral for a few thousand people to seize government buildings and airports and say “kill me or give me governmental power.” Where will Thailand be if every sizable minority can simply demand the same thing against any sitting government (democratic or not)?
The PAD leaders tell the security forces you must kill us or we get what we want. They are exploiting Thai moderation by employing extremism. I find this tactic repugnant. I believe most Thais do as well.
The PAD’s immorality is found it its suicide element attached to their “final battle” protest. I find no Thai-style moderation in that.
Well it’s hardly surprising really, when the airport is full of middle class, bejewelled housewives. Any man handling by the military is likely to be used for further pro-PAD fuel
Young angry males are one thing, middle class housewives are an entirely different matter.
Tony: look at Bangkok Pundit’s commentary that uses a lot of material from good foreign journalists in Bangkok. They are doing a great job it seems. The ABC seems an exception in continuing to use a reporter who has learned very little in her time in Thailand. The others who are getting out and reporting on the airport and so on seem to be doing a great job. BTW, my reading of the international press does not show much support for PAD. German state TV, for example, has been heavily critical.
And we can thank the PAD’s enablers in the Thai NGO and human rights community, who constantly decried every effort at law enforcement whenever the PAD sought to escalate tensions with another illegal act.
Thank you very much, Gothom, Parinya, Somchai H., Rosana and friends. You’ve helped destroy civil society in Thailand.
Thank you very much.
Unfortunately i have had no time to attend the event as i have been working around the clock the last days to get some sort of a grip on what is going in this growing mess, so i just read about here when you mentioned it in you comment.
Thanks for the enlightenment about the differences of the poor between Thailan and Africa. I’ll be sure to let my poor cousins in southern Thailand know.
BTW, their is no capital gains tax in Thailand for shares sale – I have said this before – and by the way I hope Sondhi is not your hero, otherwise I would like to ask you to explain the 1+ billion baht loans and stuff that was forgiven and other inter-company funds transfers that he practised. (of course, you can always give the standard PAD answers that would absolve Sondhi of all crimes – THAKSIN BAD, GOVT PUPPET
let’s face it, politicians in Thailand / military / police are all corrupt. That being a given – It is a matter who can do a better job and benefit the most people. In this respect TRT / PPP or what ever incarnation comes back, will do better than the democratic / pad bunch. We have just seen the level of bloody mindedness that the PAD (democratic) bunch is capable of.
How long do you think it will take Thailand to recover after this airport crap? I am already writing cheques to my relatives in Thailand, so you can imagine how totally cheesed off I am with the PAD. Worse so, because half my relatives lives in the south and are anti-Thaksin. have half a mind to tell them go shove it, but I can’t (stupid asian mindset)
Support the democratic /pad appointed govt – you got to be kidding me, haven’t they done enough damage??
Making a mockery of moderation has been the result of the Great Thai Illusion from day one. Moderation has led to continuation of human rights abuses and lack of freedoms that upon occasion Thai leaders enjoy explaining away in terms that “Thailand needs a Thai democracy.” That kind of moderation, which is really rationalization, has paved the way for the kind of Thai society that exists and the consequences that have followed. Anyone believe that Buddhism in Thailand has become more of a farce than a force? Anyone believe that various interest groups in Thailand are really interested in resolving issues instead of just returning to the status quo?
Let’s not ignore what brought the PAD into being in the first place, and how not only the PAD but any Thai in Thailand gets treated when advocating, in a serious manner, human rights and democracy. He or she is likely to become a social outcast or dead, possibly both.
I am sure that if Thaksin and Sondhi had not had personal differences that today would not have come about. But besides seeing behind Sondhi, we also need to see beyond. The beyond consists of a future where Thais can individually speak their minds and practice what they preach without being called un-Thai or being kidnapped and shot to death. For the more dense, this translates into ridding Thai society of the mentality that permitted the likes of Thaksin to come to power in the first place, and the likes of a government to come into being that commits such despicable acts as Takbai and more.
We can all throw up our hands and stand open-jawed aghast of what the PAD is currently involved in, but it won’t be the first time that armchair warriors have been wrong. We can ju dge the PAD harshly, as harshly as we should be judging the government and this Thaksin-proxy setup still ruining (no typo) the country.
And to note, I am not attempting to justify the PAD or offer apologies for some of its wrong actions. But when you jump off the boat because you assumed the ride was going to be quiet, that’s an earlier error in judgment. I cringe when I think of the extent of influence that Thaksin still exercises over Thai politics – does no one else?
It sounds to me like Hla Oo is an apologist for the Burmese generals.
Burma doesn’t have any external enemies to threaten it, yet it has the second largest army in the area. Someone else on New Mandala stated that the generals were at war with their own people. I think that’s a fair assessment.
The Burmese keep busy by murdering or jailing their own people. They make money by smuggling drugs. It’s also rumored that they’re heavily engaged in the sex slavery trade.
While the average citizen in Burma is poorly educated, the children of the generals attend the finest overseas schools that money can buy.
While the average citizen struggles on a daily basis to obtain the minimum essentials just to survive, the generals, their family members, and their cronies live high on the hog.
There is no law in Burma. People are arrested for little reason, or no reason, then sent to prison for lengthy terms. Trials in Burma are a theater of the absurd.
In short, the generals treat their own people like slaves.
The only way the Burmese people will ever become free, and achieve true justice, is to take up arms and fight the junta.
Passive resistance isn’t working in Burma. That strategy may have worked in Eastern Europe, but it will never work in Burma – the generals will break it by murdering even more people.
One day the people of Burma will be free. And when that day comes there will be a reckoning. The generals and their families, the officer corp, the secret police, the quislings – all will find themselves hanging from telephone poles.
That day can’t come soon enough.
thanks for sharing your views on Thaksins governments
meanwhile we are faced with a choice now….
between the chance for the Thai people to choose to be governed by an all elected parliament and executive government by voting in one-person one-vote election
or
for the bulk of the parliament and government to be selected by some elite group
I think you were just describing this latter option along the lines of a “participatory middle-class and well-established labour and farmers movements”
I think you mean that the government would be selected by the “participatory middle-class” and the rest of the people by the “well-established labour and farmers movements”
I presume “well-established” means “controlled” (by whom?)
If so your dream is anti-democratic and, I suggest respectfully, well established as an old, discredited, even feudal approach to running a country and based on historical movements around the world doomed to be replaced by real one-person one-vote non-discriminatory democracy… not if but when!
from my position here in Bangkok, your article is a very fair statement of where we are at…
you didnt mention the “judicial coup” scheme apparently being planned where the government will be replaced by a caretaker government nominated by the judiciary and the PPP will be dissolved and the MPs will not have 90 days to belong to their new party so cannot stand in the elections.
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Restraint is discredited
If the ‘PAD’ get their way, then that will ensure that Issaan can never sway the result of an election in this country again. There has been a call for 30% of MPs appointed (by?); that call was later upped to 50%.
Whatever the final figure, the appointed members will always have more power than elected members.
What we are witnessing is an attack on an electoral system of government. Yes it was flawed, but so are others e.g U.S. 2001.
If the government steps aside and fresh elections are held, we’ll be repeating this scenario in a year or two.
If the courts have their way, the ‘PAD’ will have their way, and the electoral system will be destroyed.
The only solution is the ’73, ’76, ’92 solution: the people hit the streets. No, I don’t believe ‘the people’ are on the streets yet, but if they do, there’ll be blood, but there might be a resolution to the ongoing stalemate: resumption of the 1997 Constitiution and greater representation of the population’s interests.
Speculations on health and mateship
New Mandala was down for me most of today. Where you all upgrading or having exceptionally heavy traffic?
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
Bosunji – I don’t know about other posters, but I’m not American. “Go back to America!” … Bit difficult to get out of Thailand at the moment …
The last thing reasonable people want to see is death and destruction, although we’re already seeing the death and destruction of the Thai economy. If you understand irony, then you’ll appreciate that, paradoxically, the people who are going to be hurt most by the airport closures are, in fact, hard-working middle-class PAD supporters – or at least those who currently have some sort of job in the tourism and travel industry. At least many factory / construction workers / taxi drivers have the last resort option of returning to their villages.
That said, how does a hard-working middle-class PAD supporter find the time to leave their job to go and sit at the airports for five days (and counting)? Hmm. So just who ARE all those people sitting on their mats?
A closing thought – watching Reuang Lao Chao Nee at the moment (popular morning news programme on Channel 3), I see Sorayut and the other anchors are wearing purple. Is purple the new yellow, I wonder?
Speculations on health and mateship
Quote from Chris Topp”… coup, however, would need the tacit approval of King Bhumibol Adulyadej, but he is said to be ailing, with many decisions being made by Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn. The prince is a good mate of Thaksin, so it is unlikely he will want to get rid of the Government that is seen as Thaksin’s puppet. ”
I find the above quote weird… Hasn’t xxx been trying to topple the Somchai government all along??I want to say more but I can’t due to the restriction everyone in Thailand is aware of…what do people think?
Restraint is discredited
Is it possible to ask for help from the UN (or international community?) to use their commando unit or something to remove the PAD from the airports with none or as little bloodshed as possible? Someone from Prachathai suggested that Thai police force is way too ineffective to deal with this. And the military, of course, refuses to help. I fully agree with this..I ‘m of the opinion that without international or UN interference the crisis will worsen and loss of lives is almost a certainty. Iused to be against this government (but never pro-PAD, mind you,)seeing it as Taskin’s proxy, but now I realize this is irrelevant now coz greater danger seems to lie in the so-called ‘invisible’ hands who seem to pull strings behind the PAD. I agree that politicians can be voted out if people don’t like them, but the military and other highly conservative groups will never be rid from Thailand once they succeed in securing firm control in their hands. This morning i listened to ABC radio which seems to give a rather favourable coverage of the PAD airport seige and stated that PAD protestors at the airport are largely non-violent as constrasted to the Red Shirst who are more aggressive and provocative (of course the ABC shows sypathy for Australian tourists stranded in Thailand)I ‘m fully aware that there are certainly violent thugs (perhaps paid by someone) among the redshirts but then after taking into account everything, the PAD and the force(s) behind it emerge as more dangerous and threatening to democracy, freedom of speech and critical thinking. Perhaps the ABC should try more to give a more balanced coverage abt the PAD. By the way, I’m Thai.
Help
Couldn’t agree more Charles F . I believe you’re right about both Hla Oo and the Burmese situation. The sort of Burmese nationalism, or more correctly chauvinism, that Hla Oo manifests is largely confined to the military. It’s different from that of the rest of the Burmese nation who in the military mindset owes the Tatmadaw their very existence, not just the minorities but the entire nation. Burmese militarism too has a long history. I’d like to see them invade one of the neighbours if only to find out the reality of Ne Win’s infamous “sword against sword and spear against spear” speech in the aftermath of the July 7, 1962 massacre of unarmed Rangoon University students. Makes one wonder what a couple of container loads of AK 47s and RPGs would have done or still do. The people by and large can only identify with that part of nationalism that is anti-colonialist, anti-imperialist.
And sorry, you just can’t blame the ongoing civil war on foreigners any more than you could in the beginning since there were and still are reasons inherent in the conflict not just between the Burman ruling class and the minorities but within the majority Burmans themselves. Just as today’s Tatmadaw has no right to behave like the entire nation is indebted to them forever and ever for independence and for holding the union together so only they are entitled to rule for eternity. The game is well and truly up.
How can Burma, a pariah and failed state that is blatantly bent on exploiting and repressing its own populace, have a normal relationship with the rest of the world? The military believes they can run the entire show all by themselves with a gun to the head of the nation they rule over. How successful they’ve been so far, except in safeguarding their own grip on power, is plain for all to see. That’s also the difference between them and states like Vietnam and Cambodia today – the lack of breathing space, internal peace (genuine peace for goodness sake, not cutting deals with certain groups for mutual enrichment of the leaders) and even a bit of trickling down of prosperity.
It’s all very well talking about day-to-day village level resistance and even making a meal of it in the form of academic discourse and research. And although it’s definitely worth pointing out and extremely important in its own right all through history everywhere in the world – particularly to those on the receiving end of state repression, but dismissed by the rulers who get to write the history – it is after all natural and indeed inevitable, human nature being what it is. But since when did this ever bring about any real change anywhere anytime soon. Burmese have done it for generations already. It’s human survival instinct and ingenuity, not that they have a choice. Peasant rebellions, there’s been a few, from colonial times onwards when push comes to shove.
The history of the world is full of spilling of blood, guts and tears in the fight for the rights that westerners, many forgetful of the historic struggles of their own forebears, nowadays take for granted. Sure it would hurt liberal sensibilities if it’s portrayed as anything but a gradual evolutionary process. Who cares, certainly neither the right nor the left? And if the liberals think they’ve actually reached the “end of history” where the “old politics” is gone forever in their smug little world they have another think coming. Its demise has been greatly exaggerated.
Fragmented, individual and low level resistance often goes with low intensity conflict (LIC) or armed resistance also fragmented in the case of Burma. But this can go on and on forever as we’ve seen from long experience until some benevolent despot in shining armour shows up on the distant horizon in this particular instance, and goodness knows how often how many Burmese prostrate on their knees have prayed in front of the Buddha for this. It’s just not good enough. One day…. as Charles F. said….. and it cannot come soon enough.
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
I am appalled and furious at the expat farang’s shrill demands for death and destruction. Go back to America!
Restraint is discredited
No, I don’t cringe when I think about Taksin’s influence over Thai politics. I see Taksin as his country’s incarnation of a master politician with dominant control of a political patronage machine. Not, maybe, a representation of the most attractive of political ideals, but certainly not uniquely evil and certainly not undemocratic. On the other hand the PAD seems yet another incarnation of the ‘Thais aren’t ready for democracy’ forces that have consistently blocked any kind of long term political process in the country. Who says the Thai electorate wouldn’t get tired enough of Taksin and his cronies to vote them out in a couple of years? Who says that some other political entrepreneur wouldn’t come along and build his or her own machine and throw him out? The PAD and before them the army or the Privy Council or who ever the hell it is in the shadowy back rooms don’t want to chance that? Well, I’m bored with these people. I was enjoying Taksin.
Restraint is discredited
The PAD admit to the world they are “Suicide Protestors.” Moderation? Where is the moderation in that? The sad thing is that onces the bullets fly, those who are enforcing the law will be villified by the Thai public for not being moderate.
Restraint by those enforcing the law in recent years indeed deserves recognition. Restraint by the PAD does not. It is immoral for the PAD to force Thai security forces to choose between nothing or pulling the trigger for the suicide of a protestor. The PAD tells the world its people are willing to die for the cause. Doesn’t the morality of the cause matter? Don’t the tactics of protesting have to pass a moral test as well?
Gandhi led protestors against the immorality of colonial rule. His tactics were broad-based: economic, political, altering international opinion. MLK led protestors to claim legitimate rights under a constitution that demanded full recognition. When his protestors clashed with security forces, being handcuffed, dragged, and imprisoned were planned tactics that forced the hand of the legal system and public opinion. Forcing legal reform, not seizure of government proved effective. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for 27 years for his cause.
Yes, I know. Thailand is different. But is it so different that its considered moral for a few thousand people to seize government buildings and airports and say “kill me or give me governmental power.” Where will Thailand be if every sizable minority can simply demand the same thing against any sitting government (democratic or not)?
The PAD leaders tell the security forces you must kill us or we get what we want. They are exploiting Thai moderation by employing extremism. I find this tactic repugnant. I believe most Thais do as well.
The PAD’s immorality is found it its suicide element attached to their “final battle” protest. I find no Thai-style moderation in that.
Restraint is discredited
Well it’s hardly surprising really, when the airport is full of middle class, bejewelled housewives. Any man handling by the military is likely to be used for further pro-PAD fuel
Young angry males are one thing, middle class housewives are an entirely different matter.
Restraint is discredited
Walker is correct. PAD’s intent is to provoke violence against its own protesters in order to claim a moral victory.
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
Tony: look at Bangkok Pundit’s commentary that uses a lot of material from good foreign journalists in Bangkok. They are doing a great job it seems. The ABC seems an exception in continuing to use a reporter who has learned very little in her time in Thailand. The others who are getting out and reporting on the airport and so on seem to be doing a great job. BTW, my reading of the international press does not show much support for PAD. German state TV, for example, has been heavily critical.
Restraint is discredited
Yes, absolutely.
And we can thank the PAD’s enablers in the Thai NGO and human rights community, who constantly decried every effort at law enforcement whenever the PAD sought to escalate tensions with another illegal act.
Thank you very much, Gothom, Parinya, Somchai H., Rosana and friends. You’ve helped destroy civil society in Thailand.
Hypocrites.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
“Michael”
Thank you very much.
Unfortunately i have had no time to attend the event as i have been working around the clock the last days to get some sort of a grip on what is going in this growing mess, so i just read about here when you mentioned it in you comment.
New Mandala in The Age
karl
Thanks for the enlightenment about the differences of the poor between Thailan and Africa. I’ll be sure to let my poor cousins in southern Thailand know.
BTW, their is no capital gains tax in Thailand for shares sale – I have said this before – and by the way I hope Sondhi is not your hero, otherwise I would like to ask you to explain the 1+ billion baht loans and stuff that was forgiven and other inter-company funds transfers that he practised. (of course, you can always give the standard PAD answers that would absolve Sondhi of all crimes – THAKSIN BAD, GOVT PUPPET
let’s face it, politicians in Thailand / military / police are all corrupt. That being a given – It is a matter who can do a better job and benefit the most people. In this respect TRT / PPP or what ever incarnation comes back, will do better than the democratic / pad bunch. We have just seen the level of bloody mindedness that the PAD (democratic) bunch is capable of.
How long do you think it will take Thailand to recover after this airport crap? I am already writing cheques to my relatives in Thailand, so you can imagine how totally cheesed off I am with the PAD. Worse so, because half my relatives lives in the south and are anti-Thaksin. have half a mind to tell them go shove it, but I can’t (stupid asian mindset)
Support the democratic /pad appointed govt – you got to be kidding me, haven’t they done enough damage??
Restraint is discredited
Making a mockery of moderation has been the result of the Great Thai Illusion from day one. Moderation has led to continuation of human rights abuses and lack of freedoms that upon occasion Thai leaders enjoy explaining away in terms that “Thailand needs a Thai democracy.” That kind of moderation, which is really rationalization, has paved the way for the kind of Thai society that exists and the consequences that have followed. Anyone believe that Buddhism in Thailand has become more of a farce than a force? Anyone believe that various interest groups in Thailand are really interested in resolving issues instead of just returning to the status quo?
Let’s not ignore what brought the PAD into being in the first place, and how not only the PAD but any Thai in Thailand gets treated when advocating, in a serious manner, human rights and democracy. He or she is likely to become a social outcast or dead, possibly both.
I am sure that if Thaksin and Sondhi had not had personal differences that today would not have come about. But besides seeing behind Sondhi, we also need to see beyond. The beyond consists of a future where Thais can individually speak their minds and practice what they preach without being called un-Thai or being kidnapped and shot to death. For the more dense, this translates into ridding Thai society of the mentality that permitted the likes of Thaksin to come to power in the first place, and the likes of a government to come into being that commits such despicable acts as Takbai and more.
We can all throw up our hands and stand open-jawed aghast of what the PAD is currently involved in, but it won’t be the first time that armchair warriors have been wrong. We can ju dge the PAD harshly, as harshly as we should be judging the government and this Thaksin-proxy setup still ruining (no typo) the country.
And to note, I am not attempting to justify the PAD or offer apologies for some of its wrong actions. But when you jump off the boat because you assumed the ride was going to be quiet, that’s an earlier error in judgment. I cringe when I think of the extent of influence that Thaksin still exercises over Thai politics – does no one else?
Restraint is discredited
Did you just write one (1) person killed? I guess you do not considere policemen killed as people then?
Help
It sounds to me like Hla Oo is an apologist for the Burmese generals.
Burma doesn’t have any external enemies to threaten it, yet it has the second largest army in the area. Someone else on New Mandala stated that the generals were at war with their own people. I think that’s a fair assessment.
The Burmese keep busy by murdering or jailing their own people. They make money by smuggling drugs. It’s also rumored that they’re heavily engaged in the sex slavery trade.
While the average citizen in Burma is poorly educated, the children of the generals attend the finest overseas schools that money can buy.
While the average citizen struggles on a daily basis to obtain the minimum essentials just to survive, the generals, their family members, and their cronies live high on the hog.
There is no law in Burma. People are arrested for little reason, or no reason, then sent to prison for lengthy terms. Trials in Burma are a theater of the absurd.
In short, the generals treat their own people like slaves.
The only way the Burmese people will ever become free, and achieve true justice, is to take up arms and fight the junta.
Passive resistance isn’t working in Burma. That strategy may have worked in Eastern Europe, but it will never work in Burma – the generals will break it by murdering even more people.
One day the people of Burma will be free. And when that day comes there will be a reckoning. The generals and their families, the officer corp, the secret police, the quislings – all will find themselves hanging from telephone poles.
That day can’t come soon enough.
New Mandala in The Age
Karl
thanks for sharing your views on Thaksins governments
meanwhile we are faced with a choice now….
between the chance for the Thai people to choose to be governed by an all elected parliament and executive government by voting in one-person one-vote election
or
for the bulk of the parliament and government to be selected by some elite group
I think you were just describing this latter option along the lines of a “participatory middle-class and well-established labour and farmers movements”
I think you mean that the government would be selected by the “participatory middle-class” and the rest of the people by the “well-established labour and farmers movements”
I presume “well-established” means “controlled” (by whom?)
If so your dream is anti-democratic and, I suggest respectfully, well established as an old, discredited, even feudal approach to running a country and based on historical movements around the world doomed to be replaced by real one-person one-vote non-discriminatory democracy… not if but when!
Dangerous days and provocative protests
thank you….
from my position here in Bangkok, your article is a very fair statement of where we are at…
you didnt mention the “judicial coup” scheme apparently being planned where the government will be replaced by a caretaker government nominated by the judiciary and the PPP will be dissolved and the MPs will not have 90 days to belong to their new party so cannot stand in the elections.