Jeffrey: of course. I ought to have drawn that distinction. It is difficult to tell what everyone else thinks. According to Giles, there is a republican strand among the redshirts.
Johnfernquest: “Sounds like he’s using lese majeste to push his Trotskyite platform”. He was accused of lese majeste because of his “Trotskyite platform”. If you actually read his book, you will see that it is an extremely good analysis of Thai society, and all the better because it uses methods of historical materialism. For him – and I would agree – LM is bound up in current domestic power relations. It doesn’t exist just as some weird abberation on its own. So it does make sense for him to criticise the whole shebang.
“You Oxford types should stop theorizing and actually get into the field and help educate the rural poor.” You sound almost like you want to expel the bespectacled professors from the cities into the paddyfields. That sort of thing hasn’t worked tremendously well in the past. There is a lot of bunk that goes on in universities. But good theory is an indispensible guide to action. Giles’s book, for example, is actually far harsher on the Thai left than the king, and that sort of criticism is useful in thinking about how you rebuild progressive politics. It’s not as if he hasn’t tried to do this, either. I would recommend you take a look at the book. It is available online.
Fernquest – you seem to pop up at various points making sanctimonious utterings and with some underlying belief that because you teach in the north of Thailand you understand ‘the people’.
I find this tiresome interjection by many Thai-based ex-pats with their laboured claims of authenticity to be a complete diversion worthy only of derision.
I personally don’t agree with some of what Giles says but his position is far more steeped in the kind of rational thinking, democratic values and belief in human rights than you’ll witness in many other places in Thailand. Including in the head of PM Abhisit.
Have only just notioced your comments on this site. You have never read any of my psych reports from the military. I actually have copies of them from my Freedom of Information Applications to the Australian Defence Force. They all read fine. You don’t get into the SAS if you are considered to be mentally unstable. In fact if you had ever taken the time to read the book you will see the reasons for getting out of the military were as follows:
1. The ADF were not at war and in the foreseeable future they were not going to be at war with anyone.
2. Once you have been on the two way rifle range, going back to a peace time army is boring to say the least.
3. The “haircut” was merely a catlyst for a bored soldier making his mind up to get out.
4. I wanted to go back and help the Karen (that was my main motivation).
I did not refer to being sick and tired of “senior management” and officer as you put it. I don’t know where you came up with that from, probably the same place you came up with my “psych” reports from.
Unfortunatally for you, everything in my book is verifiable. I should suggest you go and take a bex and have a good lie down. Your nodding acquintance with the truth leave a lot to be desired.
“He also extended his analysis to the contemporary situation, which is obviously not covered in his book. Giles argued that neoliberalism had been enshrined in the new constitution by dint of the references to ‘fiscal discipline’, and that the king’s regressive concept of ‘sufficiency economy’ was likewise emphasised. Coupled with the precedent of the Democrats’ ideologically neoliberal response to the 1997 Asian financial crisis,…”
Sounds like he’s using lese majeste to push his Trotskyite platform. That’ll do wonders for the Thai economy. A small open economy with public debt over the mandated 50%? And people at Oxford well-schooled in economics take this joker seriously?
Mission accomplished for Giles.
You Oxford types should stop theorizing and actually get into the field and help educate the rural poor.
A very good article, but it is well worth mentioning that those Thai “students” who were attending, would have come from the extreme wealthy in Thai society. Just the fact that they are students in the UK, demonstrates this.
They are a long, long way (socially and financially) from the bulk of Thai population.
One of the late General Bo Mya’s sons, Tay Lay Mya, has been excommunicated by the Karen National Union.
The former commander of a company attached to the Karen National Liberation Army’s Sixth Battalion was expulsed because of unauthorised peace negotiations with Burma’s ruling military junta, the State Peace and Development Council.
“I am yet to see any official communication, but the decision was taken about a month ago, as soon as we had confirmed he had been to Rangoon,” said KNU vice president, David Thackrabaw.
Tay Lay’s first visit to Rangoon, and reportedly Naypidaw, occurred in December last year.
At the time, just days before his departure, Tay Lay told this correspondent the meeting had been delayed because of the People’s Alliance for Democracy seizure of Bangkok International Airport.
A delegation of senior Thai generals, international observers from Australia and the United Kingdom and Tay Lay was waiting for the earliest opportunity to fly to Rangoon, he said.
Tay Lay said the Thai generals and the SPDC wanted border tensions eased to clear the way for lucrative trade deals.
The delegation included former KNLA Brigadier-General Htin Maung and allegedly the controversial “Pastor Timothy”, both considered traitors by the KNU.
In January 2007 former KNLA Seventh Brigade commander Htin Maung split to create the Karen National Union/Karen National Liberation Army – Peace Council.
The SPDC has since asked Htin Maung to provide border security around Three Pagodas Pass – feeding into Thailand’s Kanchanaburi province, west of Bangkok – in exchange for a cut of revenues from tax “gates” between the neighbouring countries.
Some observers consider the late General Bo Mya to have pioneered the way for such deals with “gentleman’s” peace agreements with the SPDC.
Tay Lay’s attitude would seem to confirm this theory.
The late general’s youngest son specifically referred to meetings between his father and the SPDC.
“They [the SPDC] want to deal with Bo Mya’s family because the KNU is considered weak,” he said.
Htin Maung was one of Bo Mya’s cousins.
“But the Burmese knew Bo Mya was a man of his word and held huge respect among Karen people and if he said something would happen, it happened,” said Tay Lay on November 29, 2008.
“The last time my father met with them, they agreed to give back parcels of land in Seventh, Fourth and Fifth Brigade areas.”
He said the latest round of talks related to ceasefires in Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Brigade regions in return for parcels of land.
But David Thackrabaw was insistent Tay Lay’s actions had nothing to do with disenchantment with the KNU, but rather were motivated by his personal financial position.
Tay Lay’s wife was recently seriously ill and he was struggling to pay her hospital bill, forcing him to ask anyone that might come to his assistance for cash.
Asked how he thought the KNU would react to his meeting, Tay Lay said he didn’t think they would be “very happy”, which could go down as one of last year’s great understatements.
But he was unrelenting in his criticisms of the KNU, perhaps looking to disguise his family’s predicament.
He said he was confident he was charting the right course for the future survival of his people, victims of a campaign of genocide.
“I don’t care, the KNU must improve,” he said.
“When we are fighting the KNU doesn’t help, all the leaders live in Thailand and are happy to stay there. They are old men,” he said.
“But people can’t stay in their villages and are fleeing to Thailand and then end up in a third country [as a result of rapid international relocation programmes transplanting refugee camp populations from Thailand to various parts of the globe].
“This we have to stop,” said Tay Lay.
But these comments came from an exhausted man, who just weeks earlier had been at the wheel of his pickup every day, ferrying KNLA soldiers, food and arms to hotspots along the border, taking sleep when he could.
In his wife’s absence he nursed his son, a mere toddler, on many of the trips.
To then turn around and negotiate with the enemy seems erratic behaviour.
The most recent conversation this correspondent had with Tay Lay was last week, when he said he believed Htin Maung had chosen the right path.
“We must talk, some brigades, all they want to do is fight, but we are weak, we cannot just fight, yes there is a time for fighting, but there is also a time for talking,” he said in the Thai border town of Mae Sot.
Tay Lay then said he intended to return to talks with the SPDC.
Mention of this discussion raised David Thackrabaw’s eyebrows.
“He’s not still driving around and being seen in Mae Sot is he?” asked the KNU vice president.
“He shouldn’t stay here, he has to leave, [his continued presence] would constitute a corrupting influence for the others,” he said.
He said the only reason more severe punishment had not been meted out to Tay Lay was the deep respect the KNU leadership had for his mother Naw Lar Poe, Bo Mya’s widow.
“We don’t want to upset her, but his mother will have to deal with her son’s problem,” said David Thackrabaw.
Naw Lar Poe’s deep and unbending commitment to her people was the only reason Tay Lay “hasn’t been shot”, said David Thackrabaw.
If the reason for the part 4 being set as private is because a person who attained the lecture is affraid of being identify, then can the person who post AJ Jai lecture put part 4 up as audio only.
I mean post part 4 with stilled picture of something and let AJ Jai’s voice through so that any viewers of part 4 dont get to see the person who concern of his identity. I kinda want to listen to part 4.
The assassination of Phado Mahn Sha can best be explained by a former Pastor Timothy (of the pentecostle church), who is married to a New Zealand lady and has appointed himself as Major General in the Karen National Union Peace Party or a name similar to that (have forgotten). He set this party up with a small break away faction of the KNU/KNLA after he failed to be elected at a KNU Congress. He blamed Phado Mahn Sha directly for this failure. Timothy is not an ethnic Karen, but was adopted as a small child by a Karen family. His lineage is from the Gurkha of Nepal. His actions speak of a person who was rebuffed and in a jealous rage took it upon himself, with a small band of followers, to avenge his dismissal from the KNU and set about destroying it both politically and militarily. He is currently in hiding and his efforts to make a “peace” deal with the military junta in Burma have failed. All he has created is disunity and death. The motivation for his “peace deal” was to set up businesses in the Karen State, in conjunction with the military junta in Burma to benifit himself. The junta are not stupid, hence his efforts failed. A response from him on this matter would be much appreciated.
We always operate under the assumption that exposing that which government wants secret must be helpful. Govt would prefer all L-M charges be secret so we print them as soon as we hear of them. The substance of L-M charges cannot be reprinted in Thailand so we make what the accused said or wrote available on the ‘net.
Mark Dean, Nicolaides’ Australian lawyer, disagreed with us forcefully when we made Verisimilitude available.
We think the most important part is that L-M cases and their prisoners be kept in the public eye. Thailand may be averse to printing much but this can happen worldwide. A forgotten prisoner is a terrible waste. The website Political Prisoners in Thailand keeps things focussed and up-to-date.
Harry is white and Ji is British so their cases become cause celebre. Sulak’s proceedings will be noticeably less published despite his stature. We need to equally publicise the Thai L-M cases of Suwicha Thakor, Boonyuen Prasertying, Chotisak Onsoong, Daranee Chancherngsilpakul and others.
This lese majeste crisis will pass but not without a lot of suffering.
A February 25th Asia Times Onlinearticle provides an excellent overview of how the various ceasefire groups are handling the dilemma posed by the 2010 elections. It’s well worth reading.
With a year to go before the polls, ethnic insurgent organizations are being forced to decide whether to carry on the struggle or become state-controlled militias… For many Myanmar analysts and ethnic leaders there is a real worry that a military showdown is brewing between the generals and the ethnic groups that could tilt the region towards fighting on a scale not seen in over 20 years… With little faith in the central government and its post-election promises, many other ceasefire groups say they will retain rather than give up their arms.
Oh, sorry – “identified yourself” as one who likes dropping these old-fashioned British expressions into conversation in order to show their easy familiarity with English (a colonial hangover). It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but obviously missed – too hastily written.
Thanks hclau, but you’re still missing the point of the discussion, which was not to put anyone down for linguistic weakness. Have another look at the posts. Here is a clue: a PhD dissertation is supposed to be an *original* contribution, by a genuine researcher, to knowledge.
I didn’t mean to imply that you were a Singaporean – I did pick up your mention of the family members here you’ve assisted. I was merely amused at your (tongue-in-cheek) use of the quaint expression, & thought you might find the Singaporean site fun (it is). I hope you’re not including me in your ‘ “you” ‘!
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Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Jeffrey: of course. I ought to have drawn that distinction. It is difficult to tell what everyone else thinks. According to Giles, there is a republican strand among the redshirts.
Johnfernquest: “Sounds like he’s using lese majeste to push his Trotskyite platform”. He was accused of lese majeste because of his “Trotskyite platform”. If you actually read his book, you will see that it is an extremely good analysis of Thai society, and all the better because it uses methods of historical materialism. For him – and I would agree – LM is bound up in current domestic power relations. It doesn’t exist just as some weird abberation on its own. So it does make sense for him to criticise the whole shebang.
“You Oxford types should stop theorizing and actually get into the field and help educate the rural poor.” You sound almost like you want to expel the bespectacled professors from the cities into the paddyfields. That sort of thing hasn’t worked tremendously well in the past. There is a lot of bunk that goes on in universities. But good theory is an indispensible guide to action. Giles’s book, for example, is actually far harsher on the Thai left than the king, and that sort of criticism is useful in thinking about how you rebuild progressive politics. It’s not as if he hasn’t tried to do this, either. I would recommend you take a look at the book. It is available online.
Thailand: Love it or leave it
It’s called the Land of Smiles. The elite are smiling as long as you keep licking their dirty boots
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Fernquest – you seem to pop up at various points making sanctimonious utterings and with some underlying belief that because you teach in the north of Thailand you understand ‘the people’.
I find this tiresome interjection by many Thai-based ex-pats with their laboured claims of authenticity to be a complete diversion worthy only of derision.
I personally don’t agree with some of what Giles says but his position is far more steeped in the kind of rational thinking, democratic values and belief in human rights than you’ll witness in many other places in Thailand. Including in the head of PM Abhisit.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Hi Neal,
Have only just notioced your comments on this site. You have never read any of my psych reports from the military. I actually have copies of them from my Freedom of Information Applications to the Australian Defence Force. They all read fine. You don’t get into the SAS if you are considered to be mentally unstable. In fact if you had ever taken the time to read the book you will see the reasons for getting out of the military were as follows:
1. The ADF were not at war and in the foreseeable future they were not going to be at war with anyone.
2. Once you have been on the two way rifle range, going back to a peace time army is boring to say the least.
3. The “haircut” was merely a catlyst for a bored soldier making his mind up to get out.
4. I wanted to go back and help the Karen (that was my main motivation).
I did not refer to being sick and tired of “senior management” and officer as you put it. I don’t know where you came up with that from, probably the same place you came up with my “psych” reports from.
Unfortunatally for you, everything in my book is verifiable. I should suggest you go and take a bex and have a good lie down. Your nodding acquintance with the truth leave a lot to be desired.
Dave Everett
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
“He also extended his analysis to the contemporary situation, which is obviously not covered in his book. Giles argued that neoliberalism had been enshrined in the new constitution by dint of the references to ‘fiscal discipline’, and that the king’s regressive concept of ‘sufficiency economy’ was likewise emphasised. Coupled with the precedent of the Democrats’ ideologically neoliberal response to the 1997 Asian financial crisis,…”
Sounds like he’s using lese majeste to push his Trotskyite platform. That’ll do wonders for the Thai economy. A small open economy with public debt over the mandated 50%? And people at Oxford well-schooled in economics take this joker seriously?
Mission accomplished for Giles.
You Oxford types should stop theorizing and actually get into the field and help educate the rural poor.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
A very good article, but it is well worth mentioning that those Thai “students” who were attending, would have come from the extreme wealthy in Thai society. Just the fact that they are students in the UK, demonstrates this.
They are a long, long way (socially and financially) from the bulk of Thai population.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
One of the late General Bo Mya’s sons, Tay Lay Mya, has been excommunicated by the Karen National Union.
The former commander of a company attached to the Karen National Liberation Army’s Sixth Battalion was expulsed because of unauthorised peace negotiations with Burma’s ruling military junta, the State Peace and Development Council.
“I am yet to see any official communication, but the decision was taken about a month ago, as soon as we had confirmed he had been to Rangoon,” said KNU vice president, David Thackrabaw.
Tay Lay’s first visit to Rangoon, and reportedly Naypidaw, occurred in December last year.
At the time, just days before his departure, Tay Lay told this correspondent the meeting had been delayed because of the People’s Alliance for Democracy seizure of Bangkok International Airport.
A delegation of senior Thai generals, international observers from Australia and the United Kingdom and Tay Lay was waiting for the earliest opportunity to fly to Rangoon, he said.
Tay Lay said the Thai generals and the SPDC wanted border tensions eased to clear the way for lucrative trade deals.
The delegation included former KNLA Brigadier-General Htin Maung and allegedly the controversial “Pastor Timothy”, both considered traitors by the KNU.
In January 2007 former KNLA Seventh Brigade commander Htin Maung split to create the Karen National Union/Karen National Liberation Army – Peace Council.
The SPDC has since asked Htin Maung to provide border security around Three Pagodas Pass – feeding into Thailand’s Kanchanaburi province, west of Bangkok – in exchange for a cut of revenues from tax “gates” between the neighbouring countries.
Some observers consider the late General Bo Mya to have pioneered the way for such deals with “gentleman’s” peace agreements with the SPDC.
Tay Lay’s attitude would seem to confirm this theory.
The late general’s youngest son specifically referred to meetings between his father and the SPDC.
“They [the SPDC] want to deal with Bo Mya’s family because the KNU is considered weak,” he said.
Htin Maung was one of Bo Mya’s cousins.
“But the Burmese knew Bo Mya was a man of his word and held huge respect among Karen people and if he said something would happen, it happened,” said Tay Lay on November 29, 2008.
“The last time my father met with them, they agreed to give back parcels of land in Seventh, Fourth and Fifth Brigade areas.”
He said the latest round of talks related to ceasefires in Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Brigade regions in return for parcels of land.
But David Thackrabaw was insistent Tay Lay’s actions had nothing to do with disenchantment with the KNU, but rather were motivated by his personal financial position.
Tay Lay’s wife was recently seriously ill and he was struggling to pay her hospital bill, forcing him to ask anyone that might come to his assistance for cash.
Asked how he thought the KNU would react to his meeting, Tay Lay said he didn’t think they would be “very happy”, which could go down as one of last year’s great understatements.
But he was unrelenting in his criticisms of the KNU, perhaps looking to disguise his family’s predicament.
He said he was confident he was charting the right course for the future survival of his people, victims of a campaign of genocide.
“I don’t care, the KNU must improve,” he said.
“When we are fighting the KNU doesn’t help, all the leaders live in Thailand and are happy to stay there. They are old men,” he said.
“But people can’t stay in their villages and are fleeing to Thailand and then end up in a third country [as a result of rapid international relocation programmes transplanting refugee camp populations from Thailand to various parts of the globe].
“This we have to stop,” said Tay Lay.
But these comments came from an exhausted man, who just weeks earlier had been at the wheel of his pickup every day, ferrying KNLA soldiers, food and arms to hotspots along the border, taking sleep when he could.
In his wife’s absence he nursed his son, a mere toddler, on many of the trips.
To then turn around and negotiate with the enemy seems erratic behaviour.
The most recent conversation this correspondent had with Tay Lay was last week, when he said he believed Htin Maung had chosen the right path.
“We must talk, some brigades, all they want to do is fight, but we are weak, we cannot just fight, yes there is a time for fighting, but there is also a time for talking,” he said in the Thai border town of Mae Sot.
Tay Lay then said he intended to return to talks with the SPDC.
Mention of this discussion raised David Thackrabaw’s eyebrows.
“He’s not still driving around and being seen in Mae Sot is he?” asked the KNU vice president.
“He shouldn’t stay here, he has to leave, [his continued presence] would constitute a corrupting influence for the others,” he said.
He said the only reason more severe punishment had not been meted out to Tay Lay was the deep respect the KNU leadership had for his mother Naw Lar Poe, Bo Mya’s widow.
“We don’t want to upset her, but his mother will have to deal with her son’s problem,” said David Thackrabaw.
Naw Lar Poe’s deep and unbending commitment to her people was the only reason Tay Lay “hasn’t been shot”, said David Thackrabaw.
ENDS
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Dave,
I’m on him, he’s not in hiding.
I will get the bastard, on my friend’s honour.
Cheers,
Dan
Video of Giles Ji Ungpakorn at SOAS
thank you all for part 4
Video of Giles Ji Ungpakorn at SOAS
Hi Eden, there is another “Part 4” which is open, at least it was this morning. If not, find the audio here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9XTY6XWD
Karen Colonel reportedly out on bail
Think news had been on New Era Journal,but only Burmese.
print edition 188 january
http://www.khitpyaingnews.org/print_edition/NEJ-188.pdf
Video of Giles Ji Ungpakorn at SOAS
Part 4 is available in a “new blurrier version”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLIq2nT4FNA
Video of Giles Ji Ungpakorn at SOAS
Try this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLIq2nT4FNA&feature=channel
The audio link of the Oxford event also includes the question time, which I think is more interesting than the speech.
http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2009/02/14/giles-in-oxford-lese-majeste-in-thailand/#comment-618167
Video of Giles Ji Ungpakorn at SOAS
If the reason for the part 4 being set as private is because a person who attained the lecture is affraid of being identify, then can the person who post AJ Jai lecture put part 4 up as audio only.
I mean post part 4 with stilled picture of something and let AJ Jai’s voice through so that any viewers of part 4 dont get to see the person who concern of his identity. I kinda want to listen to part 4.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
The assassination of Phado Mahn Sha can best be explained by a former Pastor Timothy (of the pentecostle church), who is married to a New Zealand lady and has appointed himself as Major General in the Karen National Union Peace Party or a name similar to that (have forgotten). He set this party up with a small break away faction of the KNU/KNLA after he failed to be elected at a KNU Congress. He blamed Phado Mahn Sha directly for this failure. Timothy is not an ethnic Karen, but was adopted as a small child by a Karen family. His lineage is from the Gurkha of Nepal. His actions speak of a person who was rebuffed and in a jealous rage took it upon himself, with a small band of followers, to avenge his dismissal from the KNU and set about destroying it both politically and militarily. He is currently in hiding and his efforts to make a “peace” deal with the military junta in Burma have failed. All he has created is disunity and death. The motivation for his “peace deal” was to set up businesses in the Karen State, in conjunction with the military junta in Burma to benifit himself. The junta are not stupid, hence his efforts failed. A response from him on this matter would be much appreciated.
Nicolaides, NM and LM
We always operate under the assumption that exposing that which government wants secret must be helpful. Govt would prefer all L-M charges be secret so we print them as soon as we hear of them. The substance of L-M charges cannot be reprinted in Thailand so we make what the accused said or wrote available on the ‘net.
Mark Dean, Nicolaides’ Australian lawyer, disagreed with us forcefully when we made Verisimilitude available.
We think the most important part is that L-M cases and their prisoners be kept in the public eye. Thailand may be averse to printing much but this can happen worldwide. A forgotten prisoner is a terrible waste. The website Political Prisoners in Thailand keeps things focussed and up-to-date.
Harry is white and Ji is British so their cases become cause celebre. Sulak’s proceedings will be noticeably less published despite his stature. We need to equally publicise the Thai L-M cases of Suwicha Thakor, Boonyuen Prasertying, Chotisak Onsoong, Daranee Chancherngsilpakul and others.
This lese majeste crisis will pass but not without a lot of suffering.
War and the Wa
A February 25th Asia Times Online article provides an excellent overview of how the various ceasefire groups are handling the dilemma posed by the 2010 elections. It’s well worth reading.
Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 2
Ji and Jakrapob:
‘If Hitler invaded hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.’
(Winston Churchill on the necessary evil of allying with with Stalin)
More repressive efforts in Thailand
Oh, sorry – “identified yourself” as one who likes dropping these old-fashioned British expressions into conversation in order to show their easy familiarity with English (a colonial hangover). It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but obviously missed – too hastily written.
More repressive efforts in Thailand
Thanks hclau, but you’re still missing the point of the discussion, which was not to put anyone down for linguistic weakness. Have another look at the posts. Here is a clue: a PhD dissertation is supposed to be an *original* contribution, by a genuine researcher, to knowledge.
I didn’t mean to imply that you were a Singaporean – I did pick up your mention of the family members here you’ve assisted. I was merely amused at your (tongue-in-cheek) use of the quaint expression, & thought you might find the Singaporean site fun (it is). I hope you’re not including me in your ‘ “you” ‘!