Interesting to stumble on this range of views about the proposed NGO law. I am working with the Co operation Committee for Cambodia – as a volunteer I hasten to add incase anyone mistakes me for a fat cat NGO ex pat. I write here in an unofficial capacity.
A couple of points – firstly the new law hasn’t been published yet, uit may well turn out to be simialr to the one that was arounda few years ago but as yet we don’t quite know. We also don’t know if this is just sabre rattling or whether it will get pushed through – bets on the latter. In any democracy we would encourage debate and involvement in a new law of this type – so that it works well. But one can harldy think of Cambodia as a democracy and this makes it particualry worrying to thnk of a new Law being imposed. The absence of an independent judiciary is of major concern – if an NGO was closed down where could appeals be fairly heard etc
There already exists a regualtion procedure and the government already has powers to take action on tax evasion etc – so a new law isnb’t really necessary. Funds for terrorism have aso been mentioned but again there exist laws that cover this. I can’t really identify any bad practice by NGOs that couldn’t be dealt with by existing laws. It’s interesting that this as far as I am aware has never been done by government. Rather adds to my worries about the real intention of any law – to close down opposition to the govenment even further ? I think human rights and other NGOs are legitimate in their concerns about the people they work with and their right to have a platform, a voice and to organise to protect theri rights – to land , to fishing etc.
Secondly in a broader context we can see that NGO laws have been used extensively to curbe human rights in a variety of way – go to the International Centre for Not for Profit Laws to check this out.
The CCC is co-ordinating hte NGO response and there is a joint statement – the requests are to delay the law until other priority laws that have been agreed with government, donors and NGOs are passed – anti- corruption and judicial reform. But if the law is going to be pushed through there is space for genuine discussion.
Thai people love, respect and trust Jakrapob Penkair, that’s why he rises up to the rank of leader. No country can be developed if she continues to destroy her best sons.
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Can we stop using Thai people as a whole to support your own opinion. I believe Thai people have seperated into many groups. Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Pink. And I don’t think all Thai people love that thing – (Jakrapop Penkair). And I’m sure that if you do a survey, only a few people will support your opinion that all Thai people love , respect and trust that man(or whatever he has)
I mean, Thanom and others who were responsible for 6 Tula are dead now (yeah, Samak is alive still …).
but hey – Suchinda is well alive and thriving !
in fact – he is not only free and prosperous – he is even quite often been seen on TV “giving opinions” !
bloody mass-murderer is allowed to walk around free. he was not even punihsed in ANY way – like, say, sieze his assets or whatever. instead he is a boss of some lucrative business as I recall.
so, some may say – 6 Tula happened almost 40 years ago.
but Black May 1992 – not as long as that, less than 20 years ago.
alright, may be Black may is also too far away in the past.
what about Tak Bai – the favorite thing for Thaksin-bashers. WHY no ANY attempt is being made to prosecute those responsible? or “drug-war’ – another thing which Thaksin is blamed for? it would give a great opportunity for all the “hard-core” anti-Thaksin guys to glee IF there was indeed some investigation, court case and proper punishment – wouldn’t it be ? so, WHY then NOTHING is being done in this regard – it wasn’t so long aso as 6 Tula or Black May !
and especially it would be so easy and so desirable to convict Thaksin of yet another crime – right ?
WHY NOT anything done yet ?
so, IF we are talking about “reconciliation” – it would be a very good start to prosecute Suchinda and all others responsible, right ?
(there are also facts that Surayudh also was there, leading some special squad into hotel where injured people were …)
would we EVER see that happen ?
(a hint:
might it be coz many more heads will roll – as of army’s top brass ? )
I bet – NOT while so called “Democrats” are in power, who’re trumpeting around the world their fairness and “pro-reconciliation” stance.
I am pissed at Jim Taylor and I am pissed at the whole Red Shirt leadership.
I’ll quote Jim Taylor: “If I disclose my sources, these sites & my informants who prefer to remain anonymous, would be targeted (so it is a catch 22 really isn’t it? Damned if you do: damned if you don’t).” This is bullshit Jim T and you know it!
If as you (and the Red Shirt leadership) claimed there were hundreds of dead Red Shirts carted off by the military (with that much dead, surely there would 5-fold more in number of Red Shirts injured and maimed, would it?) during the protests, it behooves upon the Red Shirt leadership to make sure that the Thai military/government accepts accountability for such atrocity without pussyfooting or need-to-cover-my-ass theatrics! And damn them too if they don’t with urgency.
Surely with the resources of Thaksin and the Red Shirts (their inside connections to the military, police et al) they would contrive the appropriate device to reveal ‘the truth’ as David Brown and Jim Taylor so indignantly seem so sure of.
I said I saw the videos, including the repeats fromDavid Brown (#16). And I repeat these videos are disturbing . . . very disturbing. Yet these videos too are inconclusive unless backed up by witnesses or more substantial proof.
If the Red Shirt leadership do not possess the wherewithal and the courage most of all to gather and present the formal evidence(s) (isn’t Thaksin the master of the media, and isn’t Thaksin the master of organization for shock-and-awe effects?) at the Thai parliament (they said many times they would didn’t they) or through the many international media sympathetic to their cause, then all is bullshit and I am more sorry for the Red Shirts followers (paid or sincere) for being let down by their leaders because of cowardice.
Potman continues this charade. Why? Some in the military used real combat rounds, full metal jackets, not practice rounds. Portman speculates whereas the military commander states a fact.
oh, so twittily sarcastic, aren’t we ?
(or rather twatily ?)
“For the sake of Thai reconciliation ” bla-bla-bla ….
I tell you what ! if you care so much about “reconciliation” as you claim (or pretend) – you (and all your buddies as Portman) would have STOPPED demonizing REd-shirts and at VERY LEAST would have SUPPOSED that hey, may be after all, these rural peasants (reds) DO have a right to voice their opinions / protest the injustice done to them for decades, and they DO have some important things to say. you would have at VERY LEAST try to find some facts which migh challenge YOUR OWN COGNITIVE BIAS towards them – rather then trying to filter out all the information through your prejudice and only accept something what confirms it and dismiss everything that doesn’t, interpret the rest in your own way and ATTACK anyone who even tries to express the alternative opinion.
now THAT what I would call – the attempt for RECONCILIATION !
about “burden of evidence” – well, first of all, you’re SWITCHING THE SUBJECT here from your (and Portman’s) bias accusation of Nick here – to the PT / UDD ! and “for the sake of reconsiliation” you better stop employing such cheap tricks !
never mind, I’ll answer you.
UDD / PT – they do conduct their own investigations and they’ll present their evidences.
and till they do – you and all your buddies have to wait with your conclusions.
regarding your own blaming Nick for bias – sorry, it has nothing to do with UDD / PT – it is 100% totally YOUR OWN taks to provide the evidences to suppport your accusations. and don’t BS me here “oh, where are / why not any evidences from PT / UDD” !
be HONEST and don’t avoid the responsibility for your own words. and let UDD / PT take care of themselves. Nick also takes care of himself pretty well. I just merely reminded him that he doesn’t even have to do that – coz those who accuse must provide evidences, not the accused.
I wasn’t “too quick” to dismiss his comment – I’ve read them (from 1 to 130+) all for several days .
because that’s what this all about – covering up the truth to be able to make this very argument : WHERE ARE THE BODIES. by asking this kind of thing – it is rather he (as well as gov., Thai MSM and all others who are “too quick” to demonize Reds) who is “too quick” to dismiss the argument that there WERE people killed.
photojourn blog has a story about monk telling this – that he saw it himself. would monk lie ?
there is Al Jazeera video where briefly old woman is talking to reporter crying and saying that her husband is missing ever since – and that bodied were loaded on garbage trucks…
perhaps “eveil foreign journalist” from Al Jazeera also was paid by Thaksin to stage this well acted by old woman (aslo paid by Thaksin no doubt ) , pretend crying and tell this “disinformation” ?
the reason WHY people are not “quing up” is pretty obvious for thoughtful people, because :
1) people do not trust murderers who kill in cold blood and professionally dispose of bodies instantly;
2) they neither trust the Thai MSM – prostitute for Establishment.
regarding many blogs …
as you might realize, all of those blogs (except very few ad this Nick’s story , or that photojourn’s – who DO their own sort of investigations and post ONLY accounts of the things they’ve experienced themselves, or from trustworthy sources) – most of blogs mostly comment on the work of others, as well as MSM. therefore it is natural that they too do not publish somethings as facts, but at most as allegations – unless they can find some solid evidences.
now, the ONLY valid point which can be made here is – that so far there are no solid evidences. SO FAR.
other things whatever Prtman or anyone else say – are NOT valid points. so far not presented – doesn’t mean there are non. neither it means that what was said (about people killed) is not true.
I do agree with the 2 points (although these are not made by Portman – I’ve read elsewhere):
1) government / army were EXTREMELY clever and may be fair to say professional in taking great care to thoroughly COVER UP the killings.
2) UDD leaders (and PT MPs) FAILED to ensure that the solid evidences are gathered on the spot and do not dissapear.
yesterday Nation has published a story that 3 UDD leaders are gonna hold a gathering on Sun in some temple at Dong Muang area where they siad they’ll provide evidences to expose government as “tyrant and murderer”.
MPs have also formed a group (or two ?) to conduct the investigations into this matter
so, as you can see, there are apparently some evidences after all.
this video was taken at Din Daeng, before dawn, 13 April 09 after the soldiers advanced on the protesters, it includes footage of soldiers loading apparently dead(?) and wounded into 3 army medical minibusses…
I suspect these are related to, perhaps following, events eyewitnessed by the monk
it would be nice to link this to where the minibusses took the
people/bodies, for example correlating with the time the dead/injured arrived at hospital(s), whether they were taken into the local army camp, the crocodile farm in time for morning breakfast or taken to Lopburi……
the video is widely available and I believe was presented in parliament, have you heard or seen any specific explanation of this apparent cleanup?
The 1996 killing of MCOT’s Saengchai — would that count?
At any rate, it seems like a good time to reread Ben Anderson on Murder and Progress in Modern Siam, in his book The Spectre of Comparisons, and also here, or so I’m told:
I do believe in prosecution for all human rights abuse, and my opposition to Thaksin and his red-shirt movement is firmly rooted in my revulsion to his/their behaviour as opposed to any deep-seated partisan attachment to any particular group or individual. At this moment in time I am tentatively supportive of Abhisit’s position (I am definitely not supportive of the PAD or the military’s agenda). If he becomes complicit in rights abuse, or any significant abuse of power I will not hesitate to condemn him.
The October 6th atrocity was undoubtedly a “barbaric, beastly mass murder” which should never be allowed to be white-washed, forgotten or diminished. Unfortunately I’m not convinced that prosecutions for every actor (or failing to actor) in the massacre could realistically be enacted at any time in the foreseeable future, certainly not without further bloodshed and greater instability. Raising awareness of the incident is, I would agree, very important indeed. I would also very much like to see Thailand make strenuous efforts to ‘protect’ its highest institution from the need to become involved in the sordid business of politics.
“you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.”
You are welcome to call me names if it makes you feel better, you won’t be the first. Are you a Man City fan by any chance?
ain’t it “funny” to see your second post destroys any kind of “trust” in your ability to report on events?
don’t get me wrong, obviously you’re convinced that “the story of truth” must be told. what if… this story is just made up in your mind? a handicap we all share
just for history of internet, i’d like to ask you:
“For example, have you seen or heard of any details of the bodies and people that we saw loaded into army minivans in the early hours of 13th and where they were taken? were they taken to an army base, were they taken to hospital or taken to Kanchanaburi as someone suggested? where are they now? have the families been discovered and informed?
the government has the opinion that the army did no wrong, why isnt it a reasonable position for someone to have a different opinion when we know that the army used live ammunition and at least shot into busses, and witnesses have claimed they shot people?”
a) who is these “we” that _allegedly_ “saw bodies loaded etc…”? i try my best, since 3 weeks now, i cd not find any evidence. you tell me here, in public, that you actually witnessed it?
a1) that’s not to say it didn’t happen i just ask you… in whose name you’re speaking when you use that term “we”
a2) i can’t remember where but if you’d press me i’ll search my files; yes, there had been voices by diplomats & journalists that indeed one might assume that people may have been killed.
a2I) but, i’m sorry, i have to dismiss what you may call “an argument” when going on, “where are they now? have the families been discovered and informed?”
as… indeed, where are they now? maybe they’re just alive na? i’m sorry Dave, this is just disinformation. neither udd nor puea thai came up with eye-witnesses or evidence.
do you?
*…
b) “the government has the opinion that the army did no wrong, why isnt it a reasonable position for someone to have a different opinion ”
that’s rhetoric, not logic, thank you
*…
c) “when we know that the army used live ammunition and at least shot into busses, and witnesses have claimed they shot people?”
this topic has been discussed on nm in detail. but again,
c1) yes, “live ammunition” was used — but if it would have been used “in general”…, na, Dave… let’s don’t even imagine the bloodshed
c1I) btw… i wonder how you’d feel Dave, being some soldier, private, military human resources… in these situations. tell me, how would you feel?
c2) yes, it’s known they shot into buses. bullets were found in bank buildings too i wonder if you believe this is some kind of “game” na? that there’s some “score” to challenge? bullet count body count bus count hospital count… — & the winner is who, pls?
*…
d) just for sake of internet history that i object to your mind-set
How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law?
I think most Red Shirts I have seen quoted recently even in the unsympathetic Thai press haven’t said they are dedicated to restoring Thaksin to power. I think we should take their statements at face value — they are looking to undo injustices imposed after the coup.
A Burma Army patrol was ambushed by a joint PaO National Liberation Army (PNLA) – Karen National Liberation Army (KNLA) force on 3 May near Wanyen (Banyen) village, Hsihseng Township, 57 miles south of Taunggyi. The following are excerpts from an interview conducted with Col Khun Thurein, Commander of PNLA.
This is the problem: as soon as one proposes alternative insights these are immediately deemed ridiculous (and “where’s the [real] evidence”?) by the pro-yellow camp which has made a speciality of mass producing incredulous amounts of media fiction for more than five years now. People these days are understandably confused. So there can never be compromise since truths/facts were distorted by the Thai media in the hands of the amaat and their military and political pals. If I disclose my sources, these sites & my informants who prefer to remain anonymous, would be targeted (so it is a catch 22 really isn’t it? Damned if you do: damned if you don’t).
The problem is information tends to move quickly as lines are cut by the ICT and its massive bureaucracy of hackers and evidence once it appears tends to quickly disappear. Jatuporn has said he will disclose further evidence about Newin and the buses on the meeting scheduled for the 10 May. If readers are interested- keep an eye on that. Are the Reds lying? Did they resort en masse to violence as the Thai media portrayed? Or just, maybe, it was fiction. To give one scenario: The Reds were dispersed at 0400 hours on 13 April when there were no free news reporters there. Those there at that time were authorised by the military and government. There were two lines of army: First the shooters then the cleaners. The work of the cleaners was to dispose immediately of the bodies on army trucks and wash the street down with water tanks standing ready for that purpose.
So this begs a question: What would the Reds gain by following the well documented violence of the radical “Yellow” conservatives? I doubt very much and the Red leaders were conscious of this easily turning against them. We will never really know will we? Especially given the current atmosphere of mass produced media lies and institutionalised propaganda since late 2006.
As for the numbers of those still missing? Readers can check with the Student Association of Thailand who also announced this at a merit-making ceremony for those killed by the army and those still reported missing in Din Daeng last week. Readers could also check credible Thai sites such as “thaienews.blogspot.com”. They also have good links.
lots of things are said and reported in papers… did Chamlong actually speak with anyone about anything? if noone commented then maybe because they knew nothing about it… maybe he was hoping it would come true if he told the press….
Interesting that Chamlong seemed to think there would be grounds for charges
“Please show me where and when did you openly call for the murder of 6 Tula, the most barbaric, beastly mass murder in Thai history, to be brought to account for his responsibility, where and when did you call for the end of his power? If there is none, I say you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.”
Come on now. Since NM was only started in 2006, how do you expect Mungo Gubbins to produce posts on something that happened in 1976, on which there are no threads? If you are referring to Samak Sundarvej’s notorious role in inciting right wing vigilantes to commit the Thammasat massacre and other attrocities, thankfully his power as a stooge PM for Thaksin has come to an end and is unlikely to be revived, given his legal problems. If you are referring to the King, please be more specific.
Gubbins’ point that a movement dedicated to restoring to power a serial human rights abuser, responsible for the brutal deaths of thousands of poor people, can hardly been expected to advance the rule of law was a perfectly valid one. Your tangental assault on Gubbins does not refute his point at all, unless you are arguing that Thaksin’s human rights abuse is trivial compared to other more monstrous criminals in history and therefore he is somehow still fit for public office. In this case, your criticism of whoever it is you are insinuating was responsible for the 6 Tula massacre is hypocrisy, unless you can produce posts condemning Vlad the Impaler.
Playing an amateur arm-chair investigator and assuming the assasination attempt is genuine:
1) I read that Sondhi’s guard, following in another car, fought off the assassins?
2) The car has dark tinted windows – assassins thought Sondhi was driving (and hence the driver was seriously injured).
Of course for the believers :
3) Jatukam Ramathep first edition by Luangta Mahabua
(Admittedly I am in the ‘unsure’ group – at least “maicheuryalopluu” – “if you don’t believe, don’t make fun off it”. I hang a Buddha and a Ganesha amulet that an Aunt gave me. I don’t know how old they are or their history as I am not a collector. For years I’ve been told to get another one as 2 is isn’t a good number)
The masterminds? Manager has been implying Newin, GenAnupong, GenPravit and TPYViriya… I kind of doubt it but IF it is any of them, the police will not be able to find incriminating evidences that goes up that far.
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Cambodia’s four letter word: NGOs
Interesting to stumble on this range of views about the proposed NGO law. I am working with the Co operation Committee for Cambodia – as a volunteer I hasten to add incase anyone mistakes me for a fat cat NGO ex pat. I write here in an unofficial capacity.
A couple of points – firstly the new law hasn’t been published yet, uit may well turn out to be simialr to the one that was arounda few years ago but as yet we don’t quite know. We also don’t know if this is just sabre rattling or whether it will get pushed through – bets on the latter. In any democracy we would encourage debate and involvement in a new law of this type – so that it works well. But one can harldy think of Cambodia as a democracy and this makes it particualry worrying to thnk of a new Law being imposed. The absence of an independent judiciary is of major concern – if an NGO was closed down where could appeals be fairly heard etc
There already exists a regualtion procedure and the government already has powers to take action on tax evasion etc – so a new law isnb’t really necessary. Funds for terrorism have aso been mentioned but again there exist laws that cover this. I can’t really identify any bad practice by NGOs that couldn’t be dealt with by existing laws. It’s interesting that this as far as I am aware has never been done by government. Rather adds to my worries about the real intention of any law – to close down opposition to the govenment even further ? I think human rights and other NGOs are legitimate in their concerns about the people they work with and their right to have a platform, a voice and to organise to protect theri rights – to land , to fishing etc.
Secondly in a broader context we can see that NGO laws have been used extensively to curbe human rights in a variety of way – go to the International Centre for Not for Profit Laws to check this out.
The CCC is co-ordinating hte NGO response and there is a joint statement – the requests are to delay the law until other priority laws that have been agreed with government, donors and NGOs are passed – anti- corruption and judicial reform. But if the law is going to be pushed through there is space for genuine discussion.
“Raid” at the BBC
Susie Wong // May 4, 2009 at 10:43 am
Thai people love, respect and trust Jakrapob Penkair, that’s why he rises up to the rank of leader. No country can be developed if she continues to destroy her best sons.
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Can we stop using Thai people as a whole to support your own opinion. I believe Thai people have seperated into many groups. Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Pink. And I don’t think all Thai people love that thing – (Jakrapop Penkair). And I’m sure that if you do a survey, only a few people will support your opinion that all Thai people love , respect and trust that man(or whatever he has)
The crushing of the Red Shirts
@Somsak Jeamteerasakul 142
exactly my thoughts !
I’d like to add here – Suchinda.
I mean, Thanom and others who were responsible for 6 Tula are dead now (yeah, Samak is alive still …).
but hey – Suchinda is well alive and thriving !
in fact – he is not only free and prosperous – he is even quite often been seen on TV “giving opinions” !
bloody mass-murderer is allowed to walk around free. he was not even punihsed in ANY way – like, say, sieze his assets or whatever. instead he is a boss of some lucrative business as I recall.
so, some may say – 6 Tula happened almost 40 years ago.
but Black May 1992 – not as long as that, less than 20 years ago.
alright, may be Black may is also too far away in the past.
what about Tak Bai – the favorite thing for Thaksin-bashers. WHY no ANY attempt is being made to prosecute those responsible? or “drug-war’ – another thing which Thaksin is blamed for? it would give a great opportunity for all the “hard-core” anti-Thaksin guys to glee IF there was indeed some investigation, court case and proper punishment – wouldn’t it be ? so, WHY then NOTHING is being done in this regard – it wasn’t so long aso as 6 Tula or Black May !
and especially it would be so easy and so desirable to convict Thaksin of yet another crime – right ?
WHY NOT anything done yet ?
so, IF we are talking about “reconciliation” – it would be a very good start to prosecute Suchinda and all others responsible, right ?
(there are also facts that Surayudh also was there, leading some special squad into hotel where injured people were …)
would we EVER see that happen ?
)
(a hint:
might it be coz many more heads will roll – as of army’s top brass ?
I bet – NOT while so called “Democrats” are in power, who’re trumpeting around the world their fairness and “pro-reconciliation” stance.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
I am pissed at Jim Taylor and I am pissed at the whole Red Shirt leadership.
I’ll quote Jim Taylor: “If I disclose my sources, these sites & my informants who prefer to remain anonymous, would be targeted (so it is a catch 22 really isn’t it? Damned if you do: damned if you don’t).” This is bullshit Jim T and you know it!
If as you (and the Red Shirt leadership) claimed there were hundreds of dead Red Shirts carted off by the military (with that much dead, surely there would 5-fold more in number of Red Shirts injured and maimed, would it?) during the protests, it behooves upon the Red Shirt leadership to make sure that the Thai military/government accepts accountability for such atrocity without pussyfooting or need-to-cover-my-ass theatrics! And damn them too if they don’t with urgency.
Surely with the resources of Thaksin and the Red Shirts (their inside connections to the military, police et al) they would contrive the appropriate device to reveal ‘the truth’ as David Brown and Jim Taylor so indignantly seem so sure of.
I said I saw the videos, including the repeats fromDavid Brown (#16). And I repeat these videos are disturbing . . . very disturbing. Yet these videos too are inconclusive unless backed up by witnesses or more substantial proof.
If the Red Shirt leadership do not possess the wherewithal and the courage most of all to gather and present the formal evidence(s) (isn’t Thaksin the master of the media, and isn’t Thaksin the master of organization for shock-and-awe effects?) at the Thai parliament (they said many times they would didn’t they) or through the many international media sympathetic to their cause, then all is bullshit and I am more sorry for the Red Shirts followers (paid or sincere) for being let down by their leaders because of cowardice.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Potman continues this charade. Why? Some in the military used real combat rounds, full metal jackets, not practice rounds. Portman speculates whereas the military commander states a fact.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
@Sidh S #137
oh, so twittily sarcastic, aren’t we ?
(or rather twatily ?)
“For the sake of Thai reconciliation ” bla-bla-bla ….
I tell you what ! if you care so much about “reconciliation” as you claim (or pretend) – you (and all your buddies as Portman) would have STOPPED demonizing REd-shirts and at VERY LEAST would have SUPPOSED that hey, may be after all, these rural peasants (reds) DO have a right to voice their opinions / protest the injustice done to them for decades, and they DO have some important things to say. you would have at VERY LEAST try to find some facts which migh challenge YOUR OWN COGNITIVE BIAS towards them – rather then trying to filter out all the information through your prejudice and only accept something what confirms it and dismiss everything that doesn’t, interpret the rest in your own way and ATTACK anyone who even tries to express the alternative opinion.
now THAT what I would call – the attempt for RECONCILIATION !
about “burden of evidence” – well, first of all, you’re SWITCHING THE SUBJECT here from your (and Portman’s) bias accusation of Nick here – to the PT / UDD ! and “for the sake of reconsiliation” you better stop employing such cheap tricks !
never mind, I’ll answer you.
UDD / PT – they do conduct their own investigations and they’ll present their evidences.
and till they do – you and all your buddies have to wait with your conclusions.
regarding your own blaming Nick for bias – sorry, it has nothing to do with UDD / PT – it is 100% totally YOUR OWN taks to provide the evidences to suppport your accusations. and don’t BS me here “oh, where are / why not any evidences from PT / UDD” !
be HONEST and don’t avoid the responsibility for your own words. and let UDD / PT take care of themselves. Nick also takes care of himself pretty well. I just merely reminded him that he doesn’t even have to do that – coz those who accuse must provide evidences, not the accused.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
@Regular Reader #133
I wasn’t “too quick” to dismiss his comment – I’ve read them (from 1 to 130+) all for several days .
because that’s what this all about – covering up the truth to be able to make this very argument : WHERE ARE THE BODIES. by asking this kind of thing – it is rather he (as well as gov., Thai MSM and all others who are “too quick” to demonize Reds) who is “too quick” to dismiss the argument that there WERE people killed.
photojourn blog has a story about monk telling this – that he saw it himself. would monk lie ?
there is Al Jazeera video where briefly old woman is talking to reporter crying and saying that her husband is missing ever since – and that bodied were loaded on garbage trucks…
perhaps “eveil foreign journalist” from Al Jazeera also was paid by Thaksin to stage this well acted by old woman (aslo paid by Thaksin no doubt
) , pretend crying and tell this “disinformation” ?
the reason WHY people are not “quing up” is pretty obvious for thoughtful people, because :
1) people do not trust murderers who kill in cold blood and professionally dispose of bodies instantly;
2) they neither trust the Thai MSM – prostitute for Establishment.
regarding many blogs …
as you might realize, all of those blogs (except very few ad this Nick’s story , or that photojourn’s – who DO their own sort of investigations and post ONLY accounts of the things they’ve experienced themselves, or from trustworthy sources) – most of blogs mostly comment on the work of others, as well as MSM. therefore it is natural that they too do not publish somethings as facts, but at most as allegations – unless they can find some solid evidences.
now, the ONLY valid point which can be made here is – that so far there are no solid evidences. SO FAR.
other things whatever Prtman or anyone else say – are NOT valid points. so far not presented – doesn’t mean there are non. neither it means that what was said (about people killed) is not true.
I do agree with the 2 points (although these are not made by Portman – I’ve read elsewhere):
1) government / army were EXTREMELY clever and may be fair to say professional in taking great care to thoroughly COVER UP the killings.
2) UDD leaders (and PT MPs) FAILED to ensure that the solid evidences are gathered on the spot and do not dissapear.
yesterday Nation has published a story that 3 UDD leaders are gonna hold a gathering on Sun in some temple at Dong Muang area where they siad they’ll provide evidences to expose government as “tyrant and murderer”.
MPs have also formed a group (or two ?) to conduct the investigations into this matter
so, as you can see, there are apparently some evidences after all.
let’s wait and see…
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Portman #12 Vichai #11
funny, people did see bodies being collected and carted away….
you can also see them…. see:
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/monk-i-saw-thai-army-shoot-monk-and-people-din-daeng
which contains link to the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_vjXQntWeQ
this video was taken at Din Daeng, before dawn, 13 April 09 after the soldiers advanced on the protesters, it includes footage of soldiers loading apparently dead(?) and wounded into 3 army medical minibusses…
I suspect these are related to, perhaps following, events eyewitnessed by the monk
it would be nice to link this to where the minibusses took the
people/bodies, for example correlating with the time the dead/injured arrived at hospital(s), whether they were taken into the local army camp, the crocodile farm in time for morning breakfast or taken to Lopburi……
the video is widely available and I believe was presented in parliament, have you heard or seen any specific explanation of this apparent cleanup?
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
Portman #10
Thanks for offering an alternative explanation of the case.
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
The 1996 killing of MCOT’s Saengchai — would that count?
At any rate, it seems like a good time to reread Ben Anderson on Murder and Progress in Modern Siam, in his book The Spectre of Comparisons, and also here, or so I’m told:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/agf38b6/n/anderson_11_pdf
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Somsak Jeamteerasakul #142
I do believe in prosecution for all human rights abuse, and my opposition to Thaksin and his red-shirt movement is firmly rooted in my revulsion to his/their behaviour as opposed to any deep-seated partisan attachment to any particular group or individual. At this moment in time I am tentatively supportive of Abhisit’s position (I am definitely not supportive of the PAD or the military’s agenda). If he becomes complicit in rights abuse, or any significant abuse of power I will not hesitate to condemn him.
The October 6th atrocity was undoubtedly a “barbaric, beastly mass murder” which should never be allowed to be white-washed, forgotten or diminished. Unfortunately I’m not convinced that prosecutions for every actor (or failing to actor) in the massacre could realistically be enacted at any time in the foreseeable future, certainly not without further bloodshed and greater instability. Raising awareness of the incident is, I would agree, very important indeed. I would also very much like to see Thailand make strenuous efforts to ‘protect’ its highest institution from the need to become involved in the sordid business of politics.
“you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.”
You are welcome to call me names if it makes you feel better, you won’t be the first. Are you a Man City fan by any chance?
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
@ chris baker:
besides the magic, you ask, “The interesting question is: why is political assassination in Thailand so inefficient?”
it’s thailand
what you call “efficient”… is it anything else but to throw a net of assumptions & rationalizations across “experience”?
i’m glad, i am, political assassination in Thailand is so… “inefficient”
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
@ Jim Taylor
ain’t it “funny” to see your second post destroys any kind of “trust” in your ability to report on events?
don’t get me wrong, obviously you’re convinced that “the story of truth” must be told. what if… this story is just made up in your mind? a handicap we all share
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
@ David Brown:
just for history of internet, i’d like to ask you:
“For example, have you seen or heard of any details of the bodies and people that we saw loaded into army minivans in the early hours of 13th and where they were taken? were they taken to an army base, were they taken to hospital or taken to Kanchanaburi as someone suggested? where are they now? have the families been discovered and informed?
the government has the opinion that the army did no wrong, why isnt it a reasonable position for someone to have a different opinion when we know that the army used live ammunition and at least shot into busses, and witnesses have claimed they shot people?”
a) who is these “we” that _allegedly_ “saw bodies loaded etc…”? i try my best, since 3 weeks now, i cd not find any evidence. you tell me here, in public, that you actually witnessed it?
a1) that’s not to say it didn’t happen
i just ask you… in whose name you’re speaking when you use that term “we”
a2) i can’t remember where but if you’d press me i’ll search my files; yes, there had been voices by diplomats & journalists that indeed one might assume that people may have been killed.
a2I) but, i’m sorry, i have to dismiss what you may call “an argument” when going on, “where are they now? have the families been discovered and informed?”
as… indeed, where are they now? maybe they’re just alive na? i’m sorry Dave, this is just disinformation. neither udd nor puea thai came up with eye-witnesses or evidence.
do you?
*…
b) “the government has the opinion that the army did no wrong, why isnt it a reasonable position for someone to have a different opinion ”
that’s rhetoric, not logic, thank you
*…
c) “when we know that the army used live ammunition and at least shot into busses, and witnesses have claimed they shot people?”
this topic has been discussed on nm in detail. but again,
c1) yes, “live ammunition” was used — but if it would have been used “in general”…, na, Dave… let’s don’t even imagine the bloodshed
c1I) btw… i wonder how you’d feel Dave, being some soldier, private, military human resources… in these situations. tell me, how would you feel?
c2) yes, it’s known they shot into buses. bullets were found in bank buildings too
i wonder if you believe this is some kind of “game” na? that there’s some “score” to challenge? bullet count body count bus count hospital count… — & the winner is who, pls?
*…
d) just for sake of internet history that i object to your mind-set
The crushing of the Red Shirts
How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law?
I think most Red Shirts I have seen quoted recently even in the unsympathetic Thai press haven’t said they are dedicated to restoring Thaksin to power. I think we should take their statements at face value — they are looking to undo injustices imposed after the coup.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
PaO rebels wipe out Junta patrol
TUESDAY, 05 MAY 2009 15:27 KHUN AUNG KHAM
A Burma Army patrol was ambushed by a joint PaO National Liberation Army (PNLA) – Karen National Liberation Army (KNLA) force on 3 May near Wanyen (Banyen) village, Hsihseng Township, 57 miles south of Taunggyi. The following are excerpts from an interview conducted with Col Khun Thurein, Commander of PNLA.
http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/all-12-spdc-soldiers-led-by-lieutenant-colonel-myo-min-htun-were-killed-but-as-we-were-ambushin
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
This is the problem: as soon as one proposes alternative insights these are immediately deemed ridiculous (and “where’s the [real] evidence”?) by the pro-yellow camp which has made a speciality of mass producing incredulous amounts of media fiction for more than five years now. People these days are understandably confused. So there can never be compromise since truths/facts were distorted by the Thai media in the hands of the amaat and their military and political pals. If I disclose my sources, these sites & my informants who prefer to remain anonymous, would be targeted (so it is a catch 22 really isn’t it? Damned if you do: damned if you don’t).
The problem is information tends to move quickly as lines are cut by the ICT and its massive bureaucracy of hackers and evidence once it appears tends to quickly disappear. Jatuporn has said he will disclose further evidence about Newin and the buses on the meeting scheduled for the 10 May. If readers are interested- keep an eye on that. Are the Reds lying? Did they resort en masse to violence as the Thai media portrayed? Or just, maybe, it was fiction. To give one scenario: The Reds were dispersed at 0400 hours on 13 April when there were no free news reporters there. Those there at that time were authorised by the military and government. There were two lines of army: First the shooters then the cleaners. The work of the cleaners was to dispose immediately of the bodies on army trucks and wash the street down with water tanks standing ready for that purpose.
So this begs a question: What would the Reds gain by following the well documented violence of the radical “Yellow” conservatives? I doubt very much and the Red leaders were conscious of this easily turning against them. We will never really know will we? Especially given the current atmosphere of mass produced media lies and institutionalised propaganda since late 2006.
As for the numbers of those still missing? Readers can check with the Student Association of Thailand who also announced this at a merit-making ceremony for those killed by the army and those still reported missing in Din Daeng last week. Readers could also check credible Thai sites such as “thaienews.blogspot.com”. They also have good links.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Dickie #52
the lack of denial does not need to mean anything
lots of things are said and reported in papers… did Chamlong actually speak with anyone about anything? if noone commented then maybe because they knew nothing about it… maybe he was hoping it would come true if he told the press….
Interesting that Chamlong seemed to think there would be grounds for charges
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Somsak Jeamteerasakul #142
“Please show me where and when did you openly call for the murder of 6 Tula, the most barbaric, beastly mass murder in Thai history, to be brought to account for his responsibility, where and when did you call for the end of his power? If there is none, I say you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.”
Come on now. Since NM was only started in 2006, how do you expect Mungo Gubbins to produce posts on something that happened in 1976, on which there are no threads? If you are referring to Samak Sundarvej’s notorious role in inciting right wing vigilantes to commit the Thammasat massacre and other attrocities, thankfully his power as a stooge PM for Thaksin has come to an end and is unlikely to be revived, given his legal problems. If you are referring to the King, please be more specific.
Gubbins’ point that a movement dedicated to restoring to power a serial human rights abuser, responsible for the brutal deaths of thousands of poor people, can hardly been expected to advance the rule of law was a perfectly valid one. Your tangental assault on Gubbins does not refute his point at all, unless you are arguing that Thaksin’s human rights abuse is trivial compared to other more monstrous criminals in history and therefore he is somehow still fit for public office. In this case, your criticism of whoever it is you are insinuating was responsible for the 6 Tula massacre is hypocrisy, unless you can produce posts condemning Vlad the Impaler.
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
Playing an amateur arm-chair investigator and assuming the assasination attempt is genuine:
1) I read that Sondhi’s guard, following in another car, fought off the assassins?
2) The car has dark tinted windows – assassins thought Sondhi was driving (and hence the driver was seriously injured).
Of course for the believers :
3) Jatukam Ramathep first edition by Luangta Mahabua
(Admittedly I am in the ‘unsure’ group – at least “maicheuryalopluu” – “if you don’t believe, don’t make fun off it”. I hang a Buddha and a Ganesha amulet that an Aunt gave me. I don’t know how old they are or their history as I am not a collector. For years I’ve been told to get another one as 2 is isn’t a good number)
The masterminds? Manager has been implying Newin, GenAnupong, GenPravit and TPYViriya… I kind of doubt it but IF it is any of them, the police will not be able to find incriminating evidences that goes up that far.