The first commenter’s claim that Burma did not “receive any assistance” from the USA after 1962 is simply not true. The Greenbook of USA Overseas Loans and Claims lists total economic assistance from the US to Burma as 212.3 million USD [historical dollars] for the years 1962 until 2003. There was a period of no funding between 1989 and 1994 but small amounts are listed after. Thailand’s figure for the same period for economic assistance is much more at 1104.9 million USD. If the years 1962-1989 are redacted from the total the 5 to 1 ratio becomes closer to 4 to 1. If military assistance is added to the numbers (and Burma did get 46.9 million USD in that period) the numbers dramatically favor Thailand, but as said, they are not zero and the commenter’s point was….
Just to clarify. The 2500 baht is per crop per rai. This does not seem a lot but this already takes into account the labor costs of peeling the husk– a process which creates a lot of employment and income in the villages–as it is done by kg at 1.50-2.00 baht a kg of peeled baby corn. Some workers earn 200 baht a day peeling the baby corn.
We have done studies on farmers’ conditions in a small watershed called Mae Tha in Lamphun in 2008 and found that growing baby corn was considered by farmers one of their best cash crops in the past 10 years or so. It has reliable market, stable prices, low pests and disease, easy to grow, short duration (45 days) and crop residue can be sold and used in dairy farming. They can grow 3 crops in the rainy season, another 3 crops in the dry season, getting a net income of 2500 baht per rai (comparable to other crops). Most farmers would have around 1 ha of land, about half being paddy land. Some farmers would get more profit if they would go organic. Labour inputs are around 28 mandays per crop per rai (around 80-90 baht per man day but can be 200+ if they grow organic baby corn). Nevertheless, increasing fertilizer costs together with stagnant prices of the output are eroding the profitability of the crop.
OK Lonely Wolf, point taken. Having said that I am here to learn, I am no expert and I certainly don’t have my own website like the OP.
I am aware of differences over sanctions, for instance. But what I come to New Mandala for is reasoned debate in temperate language.
Burma Campaign UK is not perfect by any means and I accept I may have been a little over sensitive. But we are all in the same boat in wanting to see an end to the military dictatorship and I see no benefit in the use of such dismissive terms as:
“…the inevitable criticism from the Burma watchers…” and “If they don’t get to see The Lady proselytizing in the streets and democracy flourishing overnight…”
Language is important, and so is respect for all those trying to solve the same problem, even if they don’t necessarily share the same viewpoint as you.
After finishing reading the article, I felt I was reading more of an article about international security than about human rights issue. So I decided to google to find out about “Human Rights Watch” organization. Part of its mission said, ” by focusing international attention where human rights are violated, we give voice to the oppressed and hold oppressors accountable for their crimes,” yet I wonder why “Human Rights Watch” didn’t touch on Lese Majeste cases in Thailand. I mean why ” Human Rights Watch” only pays attention to Aung San Suu Kyi but not “Da Torpedo” when both women are fighting for the same cause.
“Da Torpedo’s Speech Kills 12, Injures 344, Destroys Rice Harvest
Improper words from red-shirted activist causing blindness in children and elderly; Army mobilized ” says Not the Nation in a disturbing article outlining the shocking devastation caused by this divisive and dangerous attack on the security of the Thai nation.
Ya gotta love it. Thanks to the wonders of Google’s algorithms, when I opened the link it showed up adjacent to an add paid for by “orientalbrides.com” offering up Thai women seeking husbands.
Surely you can have an issue with any narrative. If you knew his issues with Burma Campaign UK, would you really want those issues to interfere with your own narrative?
reader,
What makes you say Dylan Grey is General friendly?
ozzie,
The Generals can’t out maneuver their paranoia. If Ban Ki Moon is a fool for hoping, then he represents a good proportion of the world’s population. Who are you to say they are all fools? One man and the sceptre of truth? Ah. Please find your way back to the hilltop so I can eat you.
According to today’s (July 4) New Light of Myanmar, the trial of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi (and John Yettaw, Daw Khin Khin Win and Ma Win Ma Ma for that matter) was postponed to July 10 because the “case file on Criminal Case No 47/2009 has not been returned yet” following the rejected appeal in the Supreme Court.
Now, I’m sure conspiracy theorists will love this tidbit but, as Andrew Selth has pointed out, if you’ve got the option between a conspiracy and a cock-up, the latter is more likely in Myanmar.
This article seems to be a bit sensationalistic, and I think conveys a much bigger drama than is realistically occuring. Also, the authors display a superficial understanding of the region by making veiled accusations of inaction by China.
If Myanmar did manage to acquire a nuclear weapon, they don’t have any sort of strategic advantage that North Korea has (for instance, with Seoul) — and I feel that rather than insure regime survival, it would give the UNSC pretty good reason to go and knock out whatever facilities (and the regime) they were building in the name of defending international peace – because Myanmar would have potentially broken the SE Asian Nuclear Weapon Free Zone Treaty.. causing a threat to regional stability. I’m sure they’d use the we’re building nuclear energy line – but they have no real case for that.
But yes, the “China should do” bit at the end doesn’t do much for this articles credibility because it’s not possibly in China’s interest to have a nuclear armed Myanmar as it destabalizes Southeast Asia, a key region of support.
In regards to sensationalism in the article itself, an example that I can question:
including a few across the inter-Korea border that have since been discovered and sealed by South Korea.
I believe the North has admitted to making 22 (I think?) tunnels around the start of the sunshine policy dialogue. Sure none of them have been discovered, but I doubt many, if any, crossed the DMZ. The four discovered that did cross the border were made well over 20 (probably 30) years ago now. Maybe there are still North Korean moles trying to go under the border, but until recently there were much easier ways to cross over (KIZ tours etc). I’m not sure what this has to do with bunker construction in Myanmar other than to add dramatic effect for the article.
The United States has been providing public goods to maintain the international regime of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), promoting trade, and subsidizing the defense requirements of the whole international regime. In the case of Burma, the NPT issue must go together with Burma’s state building issue. The divergence between Burma and Thailand started in 1962 when each developed different economic ideology of how to build their nations. Thailand benefits from U.S. aid during the Vietnam War and the entire period of the Cold War. South Korea, Thailand, the Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia, received assistance as countries under the U.S. Sphere of Influence during the Cold War. This assistance has provided economic foundation for export-led growth model. Burma did not receive any assistance during that period. As such, international community cannot impose the form of polity on Burma without taking into consideration of its economic base. Cornering Burma to the basement of fear is the wrong policy in this context. What we should do is to work together to move Burma forward for peace and prosperity in the Asia-Pacific Region. With trade and economic assistance, we will move Burma from the basement of fear to the window of opportunity.
dantampa is right. Abhisit is hopelessly lost in these power plays that he seems incapable of comprehending. He’s not about to do anything unless his puppet masters direct him. And they use LM for their own political purposes.
I can load the link above on a True Internet connection but when I click the home link to http://liberalthai.wordpress.com/, I’m greeted with a lame, failed redirect to w3.mict.go.th
The server at w3.mict.go.th is taking too long to respond.
You’ve been snooped on by the broken apparatus of the Thai spy machine it seems.
This was meant to be a short opinion piece and not an article about Ms. Zoya Phan. I used a quote from her as she is a spokesperson for the Burma Campaign UK. I take issue with a lot of the Burma Campaign UK’s strategies and opinions and admittedly I was using them as representative of the isolationist strategy that is a central feature of most foreign-based Burmese organizations.
And yes – a major breakthrough in 24 hours will not happen – part of my article was meant to manage/lower people’s expectations…
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Burma-North Korea double team
The first commenter’s claim that Burma did not “receive any assistance” from the USA after 1962 is simply not true. The Greenbook of USA Overseas Loans and Claims lists total economic assistance from the US to Burma as 212.3 million USD [historical dollars] for the years 1962 until 2003. There was a period of no funding between 1989 and 1994 but small amounts are listed after. Thailand’s figure for the same period for economic assistance is much more at 1104.9 million USD. If the years 1962-1989 are redacted from the total the 5 to 1 ratio becomes closer to 4 to 1. If military assistance is added to the numbers (and Burma did get 46.9 million USD in that period) the numbers dramatically favor Thailand, but as said, they are not zero and the commenter’s point was….
Information is available, via USAID at:
http://qesdb.cdie.org/gbk/index.html
The joys of baby corn
Just to clarify. The 2500 baht is per crop per rai. This does not seem a lot but this already takes into account the labor costs of peeling the husk– a process which creates a lot of employment and income in the villages–as it is done by kg at 1.50-2.00 baht a kg of peeled baby corn. Some workers earn 200 baht a day peeling the baby corn.
The joys of baby corn
We have done studies on farmers’ conditions in a small watershed called Mae Tha in Lamphun in 2008 and found that growing baby corn was considered by farmers one of their best cash crops in the past 10 years or so. It has reliable market, stable prices, low pests and disease, easy to grow, short duration (45 days) and crop residue can be sold and used in dairy farming. They can grow 3 crops in the rainy season, another 3 crops in the dry season, getting a net income of 2500 baht per rai (comparable to other crops). Most farmers would have around 1 ha of land, about half being paddy land. Some farmers would get more profit if they would go organic. Labour inputs are around 28 mandays per crop per rai (around 80-90 baht per man day but can be 200+ if they grow organic baby corn). Nevertheless, increasing fertilizer costs together with stagnant prices of the output are eroding the profitability of the crop.
I hope this helps you, Andrew.
The Secretary-General and the generals
OK Lonely Wolf, point taken. Having said that I am here to learn, I am no expert and I certainly don’t have my own website like the OP.
I am aware of differences over sanctions, for instance. But what I come to New Mandala for is reasoned debate in temperate language.
Burma Campaign UK is not perfect by any means and I accept I may have been a little over sensitive. But we are all in the same boat in wanting to see an end to the military dictatorship and I see no benefit in the use of such dismissive terms as:
“…the inevitable criticism from the Burma watchers…” and “If they don’t get to see The Lady proselytizing in the streets and democracy flourishing overnight…”
Language is important, and so is respect for all those trying to solve the same problem, even if they don’t necessarily share the same viewpoint as you.
Burma-North Korea double team
After finishing reading the article, I felt I was reading more of an article about international security than about human rights issue. So I decided to google to find out about “Human Rights Watch” organization. Part of its mission said, ” by focusing international attention where human rights are violated, we give voice to the oppressed and hold oppressors accountable for their crimes,” yet I wonder why “Human Rights Watch” didn’t touch on Lese Majeste cases in Thailand. I mean why ” Human Rights Watch” only pays attention to Aung San Suu Kyi but not “Da Torpedo” when both women are fighting for the same cause.
If you’re a fan…
“Da Torpedo’s Speech Kills 12, Injures 344, Destroys Rice Harvest
Improper words from red-shirted activist causing blindness in children and elderly; Army mobilized ” says Not the Nation in a disturbing article outlining the shocking devastation caused by this divisive and dangerous attack on the security of the Thai nation.
This is surely the most brilliant article yet to appear on NTN, and is deserving of some sort of prize for satire. Get it while you can:
http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=804
Two ways to love Thailand
hahaha very good Andrew! It did take me a minute see realise what the 2 were though!
Two ways to love Thailand
Ya gotta love it. Thanks to the wonders of Google’s algorithms, when I opened the link it showed up adjacent to an add paid for by “orientalbrides.com” offering up Thai women seeking husbands.
The Secretary-General and the generals
sam deedes,
Surely you can have an issue with any narrative. If you knew his issues with Burma Campaign UK, would you really want those issues to interfere with your own narrative?
reader,
What makes you say Dylan Grey is General friendly?
ozzie,
The Generals can’t out maneuver their paranoia. If Ban Ki Moon is a fool for hoping, then he represents a good proportion of the world’s population. Who are you to say they are all fools? One man and the sceptre of truth? Ah. Please find your way back to the hilltop so I can eat you.
*howls*
The Secretary-General and the generals
what is Ban doing there in the first place ?
the predictable results have been achieved and once again the generals have out maneuvered the so called diplomats .
man was nort but a fool for traveling there in the first place
The Secretary-General and the generals
Of course, Ban Ki-moon trip is getting a lot of important achievements, as widely expected!
http://irrawaddy.org/highlight.php?art_id=16267
Were there no other avaliable “experts” on Burma for New Mandala than Mr. “Generals Friendly” Dylan Grey ?
Regards.
Reader
“We love Thailand”
The love is growing as we now have an http://ilovethailand.org and a http://ilovethailand.com too…
The Secretary-General and the generals
According to today’s (July 4) New Light of Myanmar, the trial of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi (and John Yettaw, Daw Khin Khin Win and Ma Win Ma Ma for that matter) was postponed to July 10 because the “case file on Criminal Case No 47/2009 has not been returned yet” following the rejected appeal in the Supreme Court.
Now, I’m sure conspiracy theorists will love this tidbit but, as Andrew Selth has pointed out, if you’ve got the option between a conspiracy and a cock-up, the latter is more likely in Myanmar.
However…. it does seem a little unlikely.
Burma-North Korea double team
This article seems to be a bit sensationalistic, and I think conveys a much bigger drama than is realistically occuring. Also, the authors display a superficial understanding of the region by making veiled accusations of inaction by China.
If Myanmar did manage to acquire a nuclear weapon, they don’t have any sort of strategic advantage that North Korea has (for instance, with Seoul) — and I feel that rather than insure regime survival, it would give the UNSC pretty good reason to go and knock out whatever facilities (and the regime) they were building in the name of defending international peace – because Myanmar would have potentially broken the SE Asian Nuclear Weapon Free Zone Treaty.. causing a threat to regional stability. I’m sure they’d use the we’re building nuclear energy line – but they have no real case for that.
But yes, the “China should do” bit at the end doesn’t do much for this articles credibility because it’s not possibly in China’s interest to have a nuclear armed Myanmar as it destabalizes Southeast Asia, a key region of support.
In regards to sensationalism in the article itself, an example that I can question:
including a few across the inter-Korea border that have since been discovered and sealed by South Korea.
I believe the North has admitted to making 22 (I think?) tunnels around the start of the sunshine policy dialogue. Sure none of them have been discovered, but I doubt many, if any, crossed the DMZ. The four discovered that did cross the border were made well over 20 (probably 30) years ago now. Maybe there are still North Korean moles trying to go under the border, but until recently there were much easier ways to cross over (KIZ tours etc). I’m not sure what this has to do with bunker construction in Myanmar other than to add dramatic effect for the article.
….stuff of potboiler thrillers indeed.
Two ways to love Thailand
Sorry for being sarcastic Susie.
Burma-North Korea double team
The United States has been providing public goods to maintain the international regime of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), promoting trade, and subsidizing the defense requirements of the whole international regime. In the case of Burma, the NPT issue must go together with Burma’s state building issue. The divergence between Burma and Thailand started in 1962 when each developed different economic ideology of how to build their nations. Thailand benefits from U.S. aid during the Vietnam War and the entire period of the Cold War. South Korea, Thailand, the Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia, received assistance as countries under the U.S. Sphere of Influence during the Cold War. This assistance has provided economic foundation for export-led growth model. Burma did not receive any assistance during that period. As such, international community cannot impose the form of polity on Burma without taking into consideration of its economic base. Cornering Burma to the basement of fear is the wrong policy in this context. What we should do is to work together to move Burma forward for peace and prosperity in the Asia-Pacific Region. With trade and economic assistance, we will move Burma from the basement of fear to the window of opportunity.
The Secretary-General and the generals
It might be instructive for us all if Dylan Grey were to enumerate some of these strategies and opinions that he takes issue with.
The lese majeste circus continues
dantampa is right. Abhisit is hopelessly lost in these power plays that he seems incapable of comprehending. He’s not about to do anything unless his puppet masters direct him. And they use LM for their own political purposes.
“The injustice of a closed trial” in Thai
I can load the link above on a True Internet connection but when I click the home link to http://liberalthai.wordpress.com/, I’m greeted with a lame, failed redirect to w3.mict.go.th
The server at w3.mict.go.th is taking too long to respond.
You’ve been snooped on by the broken apparatus of the Thai spy machine it seems.
Works fine with a VPN to outside of course.
The Secretary-General and the generals
This was meant to be a short opinion piece and not an article about Ms. Zoya Phan. I used a quote from her as she is a spokesperson for the Burma Campaign UK. I take issue with a lot of the Burma Campaign UK’s strategies and opinions and admittedly I was using them as representative of the isolationist strategy that is a central feature of most foreign-based Burmese organizations.
And yes – a major breakthrough in 24 hours will not happen – part of my article was meant to manage/lower people’s expectations…