Thank you for this article. This is very sad news. The death of Dr Kim Ley (who visited Australia about 3 months ago) is a great loss to the nation of Cambodia. Sadly he leaves behind a pregnant wife and five children in a very difficult financial situation.
You make a good effort N-Nostitz, but in the end it is futile. There is absolutely no credibility, no semblance of ‘democratic’ respectability to the Red (and Black, don’t forget!) Shirt cause. Even the Red Shirt leaders donning new Black (to remind us of their Black-hearted shirt violent wing, perhaps) uniforms, discarding the old Red with a bad rep, won’t help N-Nostitz:
(1) Thaksin Shinawatra remains the Red Shirts’ no. 1 cause and priority. Hopeless ….
(2) The violent run of the Red/Black Shirts during their “peaceful” protests in Year 2010, punctuated by indiscriminate M79 grenade launcher attacks and arson rampage could not be easily erased from Bangkok’s memories of that tragedy. Hopeless …. Hopeless.
(3) Peau Thai Party, the political arm of the Red Shirts, remain to this day a party of Thaksin, for Thaksin and only for Thaksin. Its priority remains getting an amnesty for their Supremo. Hopeless…. Hopeless … utterly hopeless.
(4) Finally I leave you N-Nostitz with the quoted opinion of former Chairman of the UDD (Red Shirts) Veerakarn Musikapong about the ‘hopelessness’ of the Red Shirt movement:
“” . . . in his first interview with the media since stepping down as chairman of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) and also known as the Red Shirts, Mr Veerakarn Musikapong has expressed his concern about the organisation’s inability to free itself from the Puea Thai Party and the anti-monarchists, to keep away from the influence of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra and rid itself of its image as a group sowing hate.” Straight from the horse’s mouth N-Nostitz. Hopeless!
Not that Yellow Shirts (PDRC) are any better. These two Thai political movements, The Reds and The Yellows, are both hopeless ….
Nguoi Phan Bien,
The map in the original contribution above is an accurate guide to the appetites for territorial expansion of the various parties. That of China is vast compared to any of the others, and extends far from its own territory. I would say that you are one of the few people outside China who takes it seriously. There must be a large number of worldly Chinese, especially from earlier administrations, who are extremely embarrassed, even shameful about it.
Participation and identity are about as deep as it can possibly get, if you would look at what these connotations these terms carry.
As to the examples you cited that supposedly show extreme poverty. Sorry, no. If you compare, for example, the situation in Burma, Bangladesh or Pakistan – countries with real poverty indeed – you may find that it is incomparably worse there. And it was once in Thailand, but isn’t anymore. Over the past decades Thailand has developed massively. I know, i have seen it developing over that time. I have seen, for example, my wife’s family move up from what could be described as very poor into a position that is working class during the past 20 something years. From people who previously seasonally needed to forage for food in the forest, depending on seasonal farm labor for income they now have possibilities for regular income, access to education to the extend that now one of my nieces is now the first person in that family who enters university, having been educated in rural schools, and finished the last two years in a very good Bangkok college in fourth place of the entire college.
These two years she worked part time, and made about 9000 Baht a month. Sorry, but no, office workers make more than 9000 Baht a month here. There are bonuses, OT, etc., and it is quite easy to earn 15 000 Baht a month or more nowadays with a Mor 3 education. Cheap apartments go for 3000 Baht a month. My nephew, for example, who has not even finished Mor 3, works in security, and makes with OT etc between 15 000 to 20 000 Baht a month, his girlfriend about the same. This is not poverty, by any means or standard.
The factory worker making 250 Baht per day. The office worker raising a family on under 9000 Baht per month. The business person or home owner who can’t get a permit in due time unless a bribe is paid. The rural primary school student who runs free while the teachers drink and gamble. The government secondary school student that consentually ‘copied and pasted’ their way through high school who graduated with a classmate that never once completed an assignment. The private university student who received a diploma but wasn’t expected to attend classes as long as tuition was paid. The countless rural people who lost family due to understaffed and under equipped local hospitals when they couldn’t get them to a decent hospital in time. The many middle aged people who need help to read bills and sign documents. The millions of lower and middle class people swimming in debt.
All of these people may have a different view from others but the fact remains that these situations are an everyday reality in Thailand.
There are large proud segments of Thai society that are tired, fed up and appalled by being exploited and manipulated by all factions, groups and political parties and their negative rhetoric.
The conflicts and divisions in Thailand go much much deeper than simply participation and identity.
I do agree that “there are no heroes or villains here”, just the possibility that International Law may be used as one of the references for future political negotiations to settle this “conflict of interest between one large power and several small ones” whose appetite for territorial expansion is no less small than the large one.
My view is very simple. Whether a country is in the right or in the wrong has nothing to do with its size. Although I understand that human psychology tends to give the small guy some leeway.
Your pen name “sat cong” literally means “kill communists” is indicative of your extremist view that is typical of some of the (likely older) Vietnamese diaspora; that anyone who is not in agreement with their view must be a communist and must be ….(people in the know know how to fill in the blanks)
As usual, extremists usually have no contributions to make to a debate but to name call their opponents.
@New Mandala’s forum moderator
I thought the role of a forum moderator is to ensure that the contents made by a contributor are in fact consisting of some relevant material to the debate and not just name calling. In other words, the focus must be on the message and not the messenger. Otherwise, why bother having a forum moderation process?
As you were born in the archipelago, Mr Cohen, you will assuredly have no trouble providing me the media references to the expulsion of the Saudi ambassador from Indonesia in 2011 that I requested.
This is important for me since, in my book on the Australia-Indonesia relationship, I only referred to SBY’s recall of his ambassador from Riyadh, not to the subsequent persona non-grata-isation of the Saudi ambassador to which you kindly drew my attention. Once I receive confirmation of your sources, I will notify my publisher immediately. I will be greatly in your debt.
I called you ‘Mr’ because we are not acquainted. Now that we are acquainted, I will call you ‘Chris’.
Incidentally, I thought it a bad idea that Abbott should visit Indonesia first because it is a mistake for prime ministers always to make the same country their first port of call. What began as an innovative gesture on Rudd’s part became a habit and would have ended up as a duty or requirement on the Australian prime minister’s part. Moreover, there was no prospect of reciprocity from the Indonesian side.
If they could legalize marijuana, why not legalize corruption in Southeast Asia? That could maybe put a brake on graft.
Formula would be to tie- in cash (graft) rewards to governing political parties (they set the party rules on how to divide) equivalent to some percentage ( lots of decimal points) of gdp-cum-income parity achieved.
Penalty to politicians amassing graft loot outside the system would be execution Duterte style promptly when found out.
Prasetyo has also been reported saying the death penalty “must be done carefully so as not to violate human rights”. This splendid statement must be comforting for the condemned and all involved.
IN the long run the decision for integrity and solidarity will bear better fruit than the short term losses of trade and critics.
Can you see that king Richard is rolling in his grave with the result of the BRit in EU 10 more years.
We the west has changed and become as progressive as can be since the crusade BUT not the descendants of the Saracens. Using our progressiveness again us yet w/o any self examination is anathema.
SatCong seems to have overlooked the fact that Ngoi Phan Ben is supporting the neo-capitalist (you can be a capitalist as long as you support us, probably with money) Chinese government against the government of his own country (which is not much different from that of the Chinese). There are no heroes or villains here, just the possibility that International Law may be strengthened by the outcome of this conflict of interest between one large power and several small ones.
Taung gu dynasty exemplify the extend of Burmese domain then.
Nowadays domain= trading in every respect that makes the partners of Myanmar also inevitably successful whether under a military or monarchy.
As it is every country that were in the dynasty are:
1) under military rule
2) Buddhism as main religion..
3) similar hx of colonialism experience.
4) still expected to follow the model of Westerner Democracy.
5) still stifled by the NGO dominated/meddled politics
so on and so forth.
As the military confrontation is eliminated the only thing to strive for is prosperity through trading. A more realistic EU model in Asia since the Taung gu dynastic area is pretty homogeneous.
It make sense for Myanmar or Thailand or even Vietnam to envision such unity to counter the cHinese and the incessant criteriae of HR and western style Democracy.
The freedom of us does lie within our reach if we will learn from the Hx.
The Chinese and the westerner are poised to spoiled this concept knowingly for the former and unknowingly from the latter.
Your condescending reference to Maryland which is not germane to this discussion is another indication that you are on a very steep ledge. I had already been born in the Archipelago and lived there probably 20 years before you became an amateur ‘Indonesia specialist’. Throwing puffballs usually leads to just a lot of spores floating around.
Your ignorance is appalling. There was no Islam in the Archipelago as early as you claim, and when Islam established itself, it was not Arab Islam. Indian and other South Asian traders brought the Sufi tradition to Indonesia and Malaysia. Arab influence existed, but was negligible. You are very deficient in Indonesian history. Islam has always been syncretic in Indonesia and Malaysia until recent Arabization. The Sultanate in Aceh was far less Arab and Islamized than Aceh today, Hinduism and Buddhism retaining a strong influence on the locals. Quoting, falsely, one example from Aceh, which was independent for many years, and fought off Dutch and British, does not make it Arab. Your condescension and accusations of animosity on my part (PLO never had an office in JKT, because the Indonesians wanted to be neutral as much as possible, something validated by Gus Dur) is a reflection of your ignorance and your own bias. It is your mirror you best look at every morning before you write such drivel.
A very well articulated analysis Christine. But its’ fundamental weakness is the same as that of the Bangkok ruling elite – I.e. Its Bangkok-centric perspective. My point is that the periphery has now become economically strong enough to break out of Bangkok’s stranglehold. And let’s not forget Bangkok is literally sinking. Outright secession by the periphery is probably not in anyone’s best interest. But without a far more federal system, I don’t see how “Thailand” can survive long term. Certainly it won’t with short sighted General Prayut’s reactionary re-centralisation. There are many wild cards – eg. flooding. Not only the Crown Prince.
I don’t know if Donald Trump would be Thailand’s friend or not, but he certainly would be America’s friend if he can undo eight years of Barack Obama’s wishy washy government and prevent eight years of Hillary Clinton. Trump’s bark is probably worse than his bite. His rhetoric was just grandstanding; it succeeded in eliminating his rivals.
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Dissent and death in Cambodia
Thank you for this article. This is very sad news. The death of Dr Kim Ley (who visited Australia about 3 months ago) is a great loss to the nation of Cambodia. Sadly he leaves behind a pregnant wife and five children in a very difficult financial situation.
Red and Yellow in Germany
You make a good effort N-Nostitz, but in the end it is futile. There is absolutely no credibility, no semblance of ‘democratic’ respectability to the Red (and Black, don’t forget!) Shirt cause. Even the Red Shirt leaders donning new Black (to remind us of their Black-hearted shirt violent wing, perhaps) uniforms, discarding the old Red with a bad rep, won’t help N-Nostitz:
(1) Thaksin Shinawatra remains the Red Shirts’ no. 1 cause and priority. Hopeless ….
(2) The violent run of the Red/Black Shirts during their “peaceful” protests in Year 2010, punctuated by indiscriminate M79 grenade launcher attacks and arson rampage could not be easily erased from Bangkok’s memories of that tragedy. Hopeless …. Hopeless.
(3) Peau Thai Party, the political arm of the Red Shirts, remain to this day a party of Thaksin, for Thaksin and only for Thaksin. Its priority remains getting an amnesty for their Supremo. Hopeless…. Hopeless … utterly hopeless.
(4) Finally I leave you N-Nostitz with the quoted opinion of former Chairman of the UDD (Red Shirts) Veerakarn Musikapong about the ‘hopelessness’ of the Red Shirt movement:
“” . . . in his first interview with the media since stepping down as chairman of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) and also known as the Red Shirts, Mr Veerakarn Musikapong has expressed his concern about the organisation’s inability to free itself from the Puea Thai Party and the anti-monarchists, to keep away from the influence of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra and rid itself of its image as a group sowing hate.” Straight from the horse’s mouth N-Nostitz. Hopeless!
Not that Yellow Shirts (PDRC) are any better. These two Thai political movements, The Reds and The Yellows, are both hopeless ….
Red and Yellow in Germany
Take a look at what the connotations of corruption and greed carry. Some people say that Thais are all about participation and identity.
Nothing was stated in those examples about supposed extreme poverty. Just everyday examples of Thai life for some.
There are no comparisons being made with other countries.
Good for your wife’s family but not all Thai people have had such good fortune.
I wonder how any family of 4 or 5 can ‘make ends meet’ with 9000 Baht a month.
Progress has been good for your family. Do you know about the progress of others? Perhaps people from different regions?
.
Vietnamese fishermen versus China
Nguoi Phan Bien,
The map in the original contribution above is an accurate guide to the appetites for territorial expansion of the various parties. That of China is vast compared to any of the others, and extends far from its own territory. I would say that you are one of the few people outside China who takes it seriously. There must be a large number of worldly Chinese, especially from earlier administrations, who are extremely embarrassed, even shameful about it.
Red and Yellow in Germany
Participation and identity are about as deep as it can possibly get, if you would look at what these connotations these terms carry.
As to the examples you cited that supposedly show extreme poverty. Sorry, no. If you compare, for example, the situation in Burma, Bangladesh or Pakistan – countries with real poverty indeed – you may find that it is incomparably worse there. And it was once in Thailand, but isn’t anymore. Over the past decades Thailand has developed massively. I know, i have seen it developing over that time. I have seen, for example, my wife’s family move up from what could be described as very poor into a position that is working class during the past 20 something years. From people who previously seasonally needed to forage for food in the forest, depending on seasonal farm labor for income they now have possibilities for regular income, access to education to the extend that now one of my nieces is now the first person in that family who enters university, having been educated in rural schools, and finished the last two years in a very good Bangkok college in fourth place of the entire college.
These two years she worked part time, and made about 9000 Baht a month. Sorry, but no, office workers make more than 9000 Baht a month here. There are bonuses, OT, etc., and it is quite easy to earn 15 000 Baht a month or more nowadays with a Mor 3 education. Cheap apartments go for 3000 Baht a month. My nephew, for example, who has not even finished Mor 3, works in security, and makes with OT etc between 15 000 to 20 000 Baht a month, his girlfriend about the same. This is not poverty, by any means or standard.
Red and Yellow in Germany
The factory worker making 250 Baht per day. The office worker raising a family on under 9000 Baht per month. The business person or home owner who can’t get a permit in due time unless a bribe is paid. The rural primary school student who runs free while the teachers drink and gamble. The government secondary school student that consentually ‘copied and pasted’ their way through high school who graduated with a classmate that never once completed an assignment. The private university student who received a diploma but wasn’t expected to attend classes as long as tuition was paid. The countless rural people who lost family due to understaffed and under equipped local hospitals when they couldn’t get them to a decent hospital in time. The many middle aged people who need help to read bills and sign documents. The millions of lower and middle class people swimming in debt.
All of these people may have a different view from others but the fact remains that these situations are an everyday reality in Thailand.
There are large proud segments of Thai society that are tired, fed up and appalled by being exploited and manipulated by all factions, groups and political parties and their negative rhetoric.
The conflicts and divisions in Thailand go much much deeper than simply participation and identity.
Vietnamese fishermen versus China
@R.N.England
I do agree that “there are no heroes or villains here”, just the possibility that International Law may be used as one of the references for future political negotiations to settle this “conflict of interest between one large power and several small ones” whose appetite for territorial expansion is no less small than the large one.
My view is very simple. Whether a country is in the right or in the wrong has nothing to do with its size. Although I understand that human psychology tends to give the small guy some leeway.
Vietnamese fishermen versus China
@Sat Cong
Your pen name “sat cong” literally means “kill communists” is indicative of your extremist view that is typical of some of the (likely older) Vietnamese diaspora; that anyone who is not in agreement with their view must be a communist and must be ….(people in the know know how to fill in the blanks)
As usual, extremists usually have no contributions to make to a debate but to name call their opponents.
@New Mandala’s forum moderator
I thought the role of a forum moderator is to ensure that the contents made by a contributor are in fact consisting of some relevant material to the debate and not just name calling. In other words, the focus must be on the message and not the messenger. Otherwise, why bother having a forum moderation process?
Not right in Ramadan
As you were born in the archipelago, Mr Cohen, you will assuredly have no trouble providing me the media references to the expulsion of the Saudi ambassador from Indonesia in 2011 that I requested.
This is important for me since, in my book on the Australia-Indonesia relationship, I only referred to SBY’s recall of his ambassador from Riyadh, not to the subsequent persona non-grata-isation of the Saudi ambassador to which you kindly drew my attention. Once I receive confirmation of your sources, I will notify my publisher immediately. I will be greatly in your debt.
The future of Australia-Indonesia relations
I called you ‘Mr’ because we are not acquainted. Now that we are acquainted, I will call you ‘Chris’.
Incidentally, I thought it a bad idea that Abbott should visit Indonesia first because it is a mistake for prime ministers always to make the same country their first port of call. What began as an innovative gesture on Rudd’s part became a habit and would have ended up as a duty or requirement on the Australian prime minister’s part. Moreover, there was no prospect of reciprocity from the Indonesian side.
Graft games
If they could legalize marijuana, why not legalize corruption in Southeast Asia? That could maybe put a brake on graft.
Formula would be to tie- in cash (graft) rewards to governing political parties (they set the party rules on how to divide) equivalent to some percentage ( lots of decimal points) of gdp-cum-income parity achieved.
Penalty to politicians amassing graft loot outside the system would be execution Duterte style promptly when found out.
Not right in Ramadan
Prasetyo has also been reported saying the death penalty “must be done carefully so as not to violate human rights”. This splendid statement must be comforting for the condemned and all involved.
Keeping friends close, Thailand closer
IN the long run the decision for integrity and solidarity will bear better fruit than the short term losses of trade and critics.
Can you see that king Richard is rolling in his grave with the result of the BRit in EU 10 more years.
We the west has changed and become as progressive as can be since the crusade BUT not the descendants of the Saracens. Using our progressiveness again us yet w/o any self examination is anathema.
Vietnamese fishermen versus China
SatCong seems to have overlooked the fact that Ngoi Phan Ben is supporting the neo-capitalist (you can be a capitalist as long as you support us, probably with money) Chinese government against the government of his own country (which is not much different from that of the Chinese). There are no heroes or villains here, just the possibility that International Law may be strengthened by the outcome of this conflict of interest between one large power and several small ones.
Keeping friends close, Thailand closer
Ah Ko Gyi Moe Aung
Taung gu dynasty exemplify the extend of Burmese domain then.
Nowadays domain= trading in every respect that makes the partners of Myanmar also inevitably successful whether under a military or monarchy.
As it is every country that were in the dynasty are:
1) under military rule
2) Buddhism as main religion..
3) similar hx of colonialism experience.
4) still expected to follow the model of Westerner Democracy.
5) still stifled by the NGO dominated/meddled politics
so on and so forth.
As the military confrontation is eliminated the only thing to strive for is prosperity through trading. A more realistic EU model in Asia since the Taung gu dynastic area is pretty homogeneous.
It make sense for Myanmar or Thailand or even Vietnam to envision such unity to counter the cHinese and the incessant criteriae of HR and western style Democracy.
The freedom of us does lie within our reach if we will learn from the Hx.
The Chinese and the westerner are poised to spoiled this concept knowingly for the former and unknowingly from the latter.
I hope explain myself adequately ah ko gyi.
Not right in Ramadan
Mr Smith,
Your condescending reference to Maryland which is not germane to this discussion is another indication that you are on a very steep ledge. I had already been born in the Archipelago and lived there probably 20 years before you became an amateur ‘Indonesia specialist’. Throwing puffballs usually leads to just a lot of spores floating around.
Not right in Ramadan
Mr Smith,
Your ignorance is appalling. There was no Islam in the Archipelago as early as you claim, and when Islam established itself, it was not Arab Islam. Indian and other South Asian traders brought the Sufi tradition to Indonesia and Malaysia. Arab influence existed, but was negligible. You are very deficient in Indonesian history. Islam has always been syncretic in Indonesia and Malaysia until recent Arabization. The Sultanate in Aceh was far less Arab and Islamized than Aceh today, Hinduism and Buddhism retaining a strong influence on the locals. Quoting, falsely, one example from Aceh, which was independent for many years, and fought off Dutch and British, does not make it Arab. Your condescension and accusations of animosity on my part (PLO never had an office in JKT, because the Indonesians wanted to be neutral as much as possible, something validated by Gus Dur) is a reflection of your ignorance and your own bias. It is your mirror you best look at every morning before you write such drivel.
The future of Australia-Indonesia relations
Thank you Ken Ward. But why do you call me “Mr.”?
Thailand’s new politics and a double wrecking ball
A very well articulated analysis Christine. But its’ fundamental weakness is the same as that of the Bangkok ruling elite – I.e. Its Bangkok-centric perspective. My point is that the periphery has now become economically strong enough to break out of Bangkok’s stranglehold. And let’s not forget Bangkok is literally sinking. Outright secession by the periphery is probably not in anyone’s best interest. But without a far more federal system, I don’t see how “Thailand” can survive long term. Certainly it won’t with short sighted General Prayut’s reactionary re-centralisation. There are many wild cards – eg. flooding. Not only the Crown Prince.
Donald Trump is Thailand’s friend
I don’t know if Donald Trump would be Thailand’s friend or not, but he certainly would be America’s friend if he can undo eight years of Barack Obama’s wishy washy government and prevent eight years of Hillary Clinton. Trump’s bark is probably worse than his bite. His rhetoric was just grandstanding; it succeeded in eliminating his rivals.