This could just me or my browser or something i’m doing wrong, but wed-fri last week , and today, i don’t get any new NM postings – but they do show on the rss feeds. I have refreshed the browser (it’s firefox) but it appears as the days old page.
Come on you New Mandala guys. Acknowledge your conscience for a moment.
And declare your condemnation of the radical violent elements of the Reds movement, and, acknowledge that the Thailand Reds movement ‘ideology of hatred’ exists and is nurtured by their mastermind Thaksin Shinawatra.
Otherwise as pointed out by ‘I’m not that anonymous’ (#34) – ‘It (New Mandala) is more like a group of hatred people against Thailand.’
its a shame australia did not paly a bigger role in avoiding the bloodshed in thailand. The rudd governemnt is a bit limp wristed, we really need someone like gareth evens as foreign minister, rather than stephen smith
You will be pleased to know that the first SABM Fund Raiser dinner was held in Sydney last night (23rd May 2010) at the Abang Sam’s Malaysian Restaurant in Kensington (a suburb of Sydney). The event was attended by 54 Malaysians/ex Malaysians. There was a live video link up with Haris who spoke to the audience of the SABM spirit. He related to how ordinary folks (volunteers in every instance) in Malaysia are working towards taking back the country from those who would abused and deny the rights that the founding fathers fought so hard to get for the people. Many of the audience were not aware of this spirit and commented favourably of the event. To Pharris, who was skeptical of the growth of this spirit, you should have been there last night. The SABM’s spirit has certainly descended to Australia even it is only Sydney so far (Greg, I would appreciate if you could pass my comment to Pharris incase he not reading this article again).
As a special treat, we had a live video linkup with RPK and he narrated his talk at the SIHRG event in London on the 22nd May 2010. He also took many questions from the floor and spoke for almost an hour keeping the audience entertained and enthralled as only RPK can.
We will prepare a report of the night event and will be posted on the SABM’s website soon. The journey continues and the spirit continues to spread. Last night event was living proof that some Malaysians/ex Malaysians who had chosen to live in another country STILL cares for the country of their birth.
Then I have to ask who the Red Shirts are as most people know them as Thaksin supporters who are upset that their socialist leader got kicked out of government. There are people who are paid and poeple who are there at their own free will and there are peopel there just for the daily free food to save money. People can have access to all those satellite TV, Internet, Radio, etc… and they can still be misinformed depending on where they get their news. I’m not judging people as ignorant but I have to point out to the fact that the more you know, the more you realize how much you don’t know. There is so much people don’t know about this world even with access to TV, Internet, Radio, etc… When people vote for people like thaksin that is pro socialism, they are voting for slavery. It is incremental slavery as government slowly take control of life. Have people in the North and East studied the effects of Socialism and the socialist societies like the Union Soviet SOCIALIST Repbulic? The Yellow shirt is also annoying but peopel know the Yellow shirt was formed from Sonthi Limtonkul who was upset with Thakson for not lending him money. The airport was minimally damanged. The Red Shirt was bussed home with 2000 baht given to them by the government, they weren’t thrown into jail. The leaders were arrested because they were leading a movement that turn violent. When the yellow shirt was at the airport, people threw grenade at them. Just having arms doesn’t make you lethal when you are up against trained snipers. The red shirt were not all armed but they did have grenade and guns they used against police and soldier. It is Thaksin that started the terrorist problem in the south. If red shirt win, that means the return of Thaksin or his puppets to Thai Government and the road to Socialism in Thailand. Soclialism is legalized robbery through proxy.
@Uneducated person – Red Shirt are those who support Thaksin and his socialist form of Government. They hate a few rich people so they decide everyone in the country should pay more tax so they can have money. Charity at gunpoint. Forced morality. If they fought for lower taxes and less regulation and free market, I will be worshiping them. But they fight for socialism, more regulation, and free things from government.
@Nuomi
I appreciate both the Red Shirt and Yellow shirt’s enthuasiasm and political activism but I view those who support socialism/communism as my enemy and the enemy of Sovereign Thailand.
The best way to end corruption is not to depend on government for so many things. Stop giving government power so the government officials cannot sell that power to the highest bidder. Decentralize and localize everything. The federal government should serve the provincial government and the provincial government should serve the local government and the local government should serve the people. What I see nowadays is the federal government is acting like some type of ruler.
Thaksin supporters have used heavy weapons and grenades even when the police/soliders were using rubber bullets. the point isn’t so much who is right, it is the blocking of major commercial centers and setting up multiple blockades around bangkok. We all know how bad traffic is in Bangkok. Have they no consideration how much problem that causes? Peopel in the Condos where they were located could not go out to get food. If they want to have a protest, then do it but why the multiple blockades? Why the burning of tires? Why the shopping malls when their quarrel is with government?
I don’t think you really want the military to implement crowd control for that may involved belt fed weapons and firing randomly into the crowd. A massacre is something a government would want to avoid if possible.
Terrorist can be the act of intimidation. Actually the word Terrorist came from France and was used to describe Government actions against the people. I’m no fan of Government but like I said, anyone who supports socialism/communism is my enemy.
“Pharris I think all the evidence you will need to praise the army will be planted in the next few days. ”
If you saw Saturday nights televised briefing for military attaches there you had it. Lots of explosives and guns, supposedly left by the Reds. TV footage, carefully cut, of Red speakers & Thaksin but none of independent news organisations filming the soldiers finding the weaponry.
Very much smacks of the CIA fabrication of evidence approach which I recall they used during the Vietnam war.
@JohnH 47
“This is Thailand” the pharmacist said to me when I went to return 5 tubes of over prescribed drugs to Suan Dok Hospital in Chiang Mai. Just the other day she encountered a similar case, both from the Skin Clinic, she said. “Hospitals are being run like businesses” she added.
@michael 48
The Misery of Culture sure knows how to entertain. Every government TV channel puts on an 8 pm laugh segment every night.
Nick! How could you post this article written by an anonymous on this edutional website?
If so, can I anonymously say that New Mandala is part of Red-shirt Terrorist group against Thailand funded by Australian National University?
Seriously, this forum standard has hit the new low. It’s not about education in South East Asia anymore. It’s more like a group of hatred people against Thailand.
@John To that, I must refer to another Quote from the Great Thomas Jefferson and BenjaminFranklin.
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” – Thomas Jefferson
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety” – Benjamin Franklin
Freedom and Security are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Maximum security means solitary confinement in a penitentiary.
@Steve It is true that African Americans were excluded but if one carefully studies the events leading up to the declaration of independence, the majority of the 13 colonies wanted to free slaves with the main holdout being South Carolina. North Carolina just went along with whatever South Carolina wanted. The original draft of the declaration had one of the grievances to the King, the continual support of slavery and the slave trade. It was removed due to South Carolina refusing to sign unless it was removed. They tried, they weren’t successful and with war looming, they had to get the colonies united or face defeat so they proceeded with the section on slavery removed.
@Michael At the time some of those quotes were made, many of the Colonist were Citizens of the British Empire. The main difference between a Democracy and a Republic is in a Democracy, 99% can vote away the right of 1% of the population (Mob Rule) while in a Republic, 99% can not vote away the PROTECTED right of 1% of the population (Rule by Law). I just saw the word democracy freely used so I wanted to point out what many great men had said about the Democratic form of Government.
I don’t disagree with much of what you have to say in comment #30 above. But hasn’t this all been reported on at a level that could be described as obsessive and omnipresent?
I do think that Thaksin’s many flaws need to be aired fully and fairly, which strangely hasn’t happened. I think he is a big part of the problem and probably not part of the solution.
But the other side of the equation has really not been discussed at all. These threads are a very helpful way of addressing that imbalance.
I should say from the start that I was a nurse in the UK and have some 24 years experience, working in the Royal Navy treating civilians in the the RN hospitals’ Accident and Emergency Departments in Gosport nr. Portsmouth and Plymouth in the UK, and then as a clinical nurse specialist in resuscitation for the NHS.
First, in Thailand, the standard of care is directly related to how much money you have and your position in society. I have been to a number of hospitals here – state and private – and have been appalled by the uncaring attitude and low standard of care.
Second, innapropriate medicines prescribed – a Thai pharmacist friend in the pharmaceutical industry here tells me that some drug companies give doctors under the table freebies and payments to push their drugs – interestingly not just the exotic or new ones , but also the run of the mill medicines such as antibiotics.
Extra-payments to UK doctors are forbidden by law – yes I know that the pharmaceutical industry world-wide fund research and doctors (and nurses) to attend international conferences etc.
Antibiotics are a very good example. Many Thai people will routinely take them for viral infections – doctors here have told me they prescribe them to protect the patient from getting a secondary bacterial infection due to a lowered immune system. Rubbish, utter rubbish and not scientific. They should be given to patients with increased risk factors such as other underlying disease but not for otherwise healthy people with common, seasonal viral illnesses.
Senior officials in the Thai FDA routinely demand under the table payments to license new medicines for use in Thailand. Last year, an international company MD challenged this at senior govt. level and won, when he threatened to expose this practice in public. He had recorded the conversations – clever guy.
This was never made public. No surprises there eh?
so, did they wake up because of / after their leaders were “interviewed” by CRES ( = junta) – or actually they woke up before that and that’s why CRES invited them for chit-chat ?
“Several Thai student leaders who had come out on the side of Red Shirt anti-government protesters in recent weeks were said to have fled Bangkok after receiving threats from Yellow Shirt pro-government groups.”
woops ! this sort of plot can’t be found in current Thai MSM news update – which are rather busy with cheerful stories of “beloved Bangkok Clean up” (I guess the message is – cleaning up from “red germs” – as Thinitan described Bangkokians’ attitude recently)
so, in the midst of fanfare & triumph, this sort of news about PADshists / vigilante raising naturally gets missed by Thai Media, no doubt ! it is rather more interested by witch-hunt of “terrorists” – latest news are that one professor Suthachai has been arrested / summoned on terrorist charges – although he has no any clue.
Welcome to Toler-land ! as increasing number of Thais call it now.
(some use words: Lie-land and especially Die-land)
coming back to students though … looks like Deja vu of aftermath of Hoktula ? (6 Oct 1976 – Thammasat massacre, survivors fled to jungle just to STAY ALIVE – not coz they were communists)
“Student activists and leaders, including the Secretary General of the Students Federation of Thailand, received email threats from pro-government groups of people who support the crackdown because the students spoke against the government’s excessive use of force…
“We are receiving news of students leaving Bangkok for the south [of Thailand],” Pokpong said. “They are expecting a witch hunt after the crackdown.”
…
Suluck put the number who had left Bangkok at between five and 10 members of the federation…
interesting that in 70s students fled to North, now some 40 years later they flee to South – despite the insurgency there (or rather precisely because it is there?)
few days before final crackdown (May 19), I think that was on May 14th night – there was short story (well, at least on Twitter, if not on Thai or even foreign MSM) that among other sporadic rallies (at least 6 places were mentioned, as Klong-toei, Ladprao, DinDaeng …) all across Bangkok in support of red-shirts at Ratchaprasong – one of such rallies was by students at Ramkanhaeng Uni. so, why I mention it – because I recall reading on Twitter that at around midnight it was reported that students has dispersed because there was an attack on them there, first bottles thrown, then shots fired.
I guess that was the first time when students fled vigilante (PADshists). now though this article above indicates that it is more serious than that.
so, if it is true and threat is serious and real – then I guess many people will have no choice but run for their lives.
which would certainly mean repeat of 34y.o. history …
What next for creative artists, who have been hamstrung by Thailand’s very tight-arsed Misery of Culture, with its sinister Cultural Surveillance Department?
Well, hopefully they will get a bit of a spurt ahead, because brilliant 39-yr-old Thai film-maker Apichatpong Weerasethakul has just won the Palme d’Or at Cannes for his ‘Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives’! Huzzah!
If Abhisit is smart, he will not only fete ‘Joe’, who has brought honour to a country sadly in need of it, but do a major reshuffle in the Misery of Culture, especially shafting the horrible Kh. Ladda, and all the other grotesques who have been holding back cultural development in this anachronistically prettified country. (In a recent move, the Misery gave half of its miserly film grants to a sequel to the epic ‘Naresuan’, leading many to ask why government assistance should be given to commercial projects quite able to raise finance from investors.)
Kh Ladda famously said, during a censorship debacle when her unit instructed Apichatpong to remove several scenes from his ‘Syndromes & a Century’, “Nobody goes to see films by Apichatpong. Thai people want to see comedy. We like a laugh.” She described Thai film-goers as “uneducated” and went on to say, “They’re not intellectuals, that’s why we need ratings.” The bimbo approach to cultural development: the arts are for decorating an ugly world & keeping its inhabitants stupid. ‘Joe’ removed his film from circulation in Thailand.
There are young writers, visual artists, cinematographers, and music-makers in Thailand whose potential is shriveling up because of the pressure on them to be airheads, trivial, inoffensive and decorative. A lot of them go into advertising. With a bit of support, they could be part of the changes that this society is undergoing, providing opportunities for self-reflection and the discussion of ideas, as they are in other countries. Just give ’em the money, and stand well back!
I agree with most of Stuart’s #3 points but I dislike it that he put it is such a hopeless tone.
It’s true they need to continue with their democratisation and it’s true that Abhitsit must be removed and …. must be dead, but there is no need to put them down by saying they can’t do it and that they won’t even exist in the future.
I like your points, I know you’re sick of the middle class Thais’ relentless naivety (I do too), but please if you can’t suggest something then please just stay objective.
from a Chinese-Thai who supports democracy and prefers to address himself as overseas Chinese.
@Pharris. Do you really believe that the army was restrained? Sure, they could have killed their prisoners in broad daylight, but how many prisoners and unaccounted for dead have disappeared?
we may never know, and that’s the point.
maybe you should ask better questions like why the government spent millions on antiriot gear for the army, a job and funding that should have been delegated to the police, when they skipped the whole humanitarian crowd control step and proceeded to open fire with snipers and assault rifles in a remarkable breach of accepted practice.(oh yea, i forgot it was self defense because the conscripts were getting massacred first). the army has left scars that won’t heal for a generation.
who gave the order to assassinate? who gave the order to abandon tear gas and batons for sniper scopes and automatic gunfire?
who is going to investigate this when the crime scene is closed to independent scrutiny and the evidence is currently being swept under the carpet by the BMA and volunteers?
Pharris I think all the evidence you will need to praise the army will be planted in the next few days. No need to worry about the witnesses, they will be dead or deported by then.
Stuart #63 – while I agree with your economic history of why Isaarn has become dominated by the Central Plains and Bangkok,
I think you’re out-dated arguing Isaarn could n’t economically survive as an independent state.
It would simply have to open itself up much more to China and Vietnam, while trying to retain as many economic ties with the remaining Thailand, as possible.
Indeed, to some extent this is already happening along the Mekong basin – have you seen the amount of Chinese commerce in Vientianne and Udon Thani these days, despite the Thai economy still being very closed (in fact in some respects having become more so).
Stuart Goddard #36 :
Yes the consequences would be “onerous” .
And if it is at all possible, probably the best outcome is a more flexible, federal system where Isaarn stays within Thailand with less control from Bangkok. But de-centralisation has been talked about for decades now, with little or no result.
When I asked Marc Askew about this possiblity – pointing to Indonesia’s de-facto de-centralisation since Suharto, his reply was that “the Thai military would never accept it”.
Anyhow, Thailand seems to be going down the worst possible path – with very probably a Pattani-style insurgency taking root in Isaarn. We’re either past the point of no-return, or it’s one minute before midnight on that.
Pattani has been particularly “onerous” on the Thai military, which has been beaten to a stalemate by a far smaller number of insurgents than there are Reds in Isaarn.
among many other shockers that u chemp erroneously asserts, I think it is natural gas coming out of the gulf for the Thais and not oil.
as to the IMF – their (incorrect) policies were pretty much universal if any country wanted money. And even the simplest economic analaysis shows that by the time IMF bashing started (read nationalistic, anti foreign jingoist Thaksin election buildup , i.e blame foreigners for a decade of govt fiscal irresponsibility), the economy was growing rapidly. Paying back or not paying back early was irrevelant to prosperity.
Honestly, do some analysis.
Also please give us the data on those student loan takers who are now in jail. I will personally bail them out – if anyone is there. Or perhaps they were killed extrajudicially!!??
Benja:
I believe most of the seasoned readers here all agree with the fact that Taksin was a corrupt PM (just like all the PMs that came before him). As for ‘but then Taksin is the most corrupted ever’ counter-argument, well, as far as I can remember in Thailand, every election was declared the most corrupted ever by the local media and I’d like to candidly attribute that to a natural economic process called ‘inflation’.
I also believe that most of the seasoned readers here know that some of the money that financed this Red Shirt protest came from Taksin. That is obvious. I also know many from overseas sending money back to their relatives, and I know of fund-raising efforts up north.
I also know a good number of Isaan waitresses and cooks overseas sending news home from abroad because their relatives and friends complain ‘one get depress watching TV or listening to radio in Thailand because the government is spending all the time looking for the next thing to blame on Taksin instead of running the country’. I translated some of those Economist, Guardian, BBC, NYT, SMH, WSJ, Aljareeza etc articles for them.
The point here is, Taksin is not a good guy and we all know it – really we are not that ‘stupid’, but most of the seasoned readers here also acknowledged that Taksin is smart and find it hard to attribute too many accusations of stupid acts to him even as we acknowledge that even the smartest people makes mistakes.
We all know the Red Shirts have arms – various international media had shown the red shirts showing off the weapons they confiscated from the army personals during that bungled April 10 operation. We also know there are hardcore elements in that group – just as there are hardcore elements in the yellow camp.
With respect to the ‘arsenal of weapons’ the Ahbisit Government claimed belonged to the ‘terrorists’. I mean, simply try listening to this: Dangerous red shirt terrorists numbering nearly 5000 armed with an arsenal of AK rifles, machine guns, bombs, and grenade launchers charged into battle as soon the the army armored vehicles stormed through their barricade. At the end of the battle, with tens of terrorists dead and hundreds, perhaps a thousand more injured, the army finally restored some semblance of peace to the city with only one known casualty who was possibly down by friendly sniper fire. Hundreds of homemade slingshots were confiscated…
The second issue that plague me beyond the standard fact that riot control is normally a police domain (Seriously, don’t give me the Taksin is former police spew – I am referring to the fact that Thai police were never properly trained for riot control and this duty is always undertaken by the army that is supposedly trained to fight external enemies issue) is this: The army supposedly vastly outnumber the protesters. They were fully armed and armored. PM Ahbisit assured us that the area is fully contained surrounded by tanks and barbed wires. No one was supposed to have been able to have gone in and out. (Note that such cordoning is rarely airtight but it should make entry and exit ‘difficult’.) Yet within minutes of the army breaking through the barricades, an enraged mob possibly three thousand strong from that camp was rampaging through the streets of Bangkok destroying properties. How did they get out so fast? What kind of ‘successful’ crowd control is that? Why were they allowed to ‘pour out’ of their encampment rampage through town? These dangerous and heavily armed red shirt terrorists with grenade launchers, who were so angry with the army firing at them sniping them off one by one, that instead of dragging the soldiers out of their army vehicles and beating them up or firing grenades into those vehicles, they went pass the armed soldiers without getting killed, and then proceed to the various buildings, put aside their unused grenade launchers and proceed to use petrol that one can easily get from any parked cars to set fires to various buildings?
I have already stated in an earlier post what the angry mob had done was wrong and illegal. So I agree with you, the protest at the end is not peaceful. It degenerated into an angry mob. Note I used the word mob, an out of control mob. The difference is, mob means arrest and trial and charged and jail. Terrorists mean one can kill in the name of self-defence. See that difference?
And as far as terrorizing goes, one really do not need to kill a lot, just enough to terrorize – now that is the way of the master terrorist.
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New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
This could just me or my browser or something i’m doing wrong, but wed-fri last week , and today, i don’t get any new NM postings – but they do show on the rss feeds. I have refreshed the browser (it’s firefox) but it appears as the days old page.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Come on you New Mandala guys. Acknowledge your conscience for a moment.
And declare your condemnation of the radical violent elements of the Reds movement, and, acknowledge that the Thailand Reds movement ‘ideology of hatred’ exists and is nurtured by their mastermind Thaksin Shinawatra.
Otherwise as pointed out by ‘I’m not that anonymous’ (#34) – ‘It (New Mandala) is more like a group of hatred people against Thailand.’
To jolt New Mandala’s conscience further:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBDm-jA3N80
What next for Thailand?
its a shame australia did not paly a bigger role in avoiding the bloodshed in thailand. The rudd governemnt is a bit limp wristed, we really need someone like gareth evens as foreign minister, rather than stephen smith
Saya Anak Bangsa Malaysia
Greg
You will be pleased to know that the first SABM Fund Raiser dinner was held in Sydney last night (23rd May 2010) at the Abang Sam’s Malaysian Restaurant in Kensington (a suburb of Sydney). The event was attended by 54 Malaysians/ex Malaysians. There was a live video link up with Haris who spoke to the audience of the SABM spirit. He related to how ordinary folks (volunteers in every instance) in Malaysia are working towards taking back the country from those who would abused and deny the rights that the founding fathers fought so hard to get for the people. Many of the audience were not aware of this spirit and commented favourably of the event. To Pharris, who was skeptical of the growth of this spirit, you should have been there last night. The SABM’s spirit has certainly descended to Australia even it is only Sydney so far (Greg, I would appreciate if you could pass my comment to Pharris incase he not reading this article again).
As a special treat, we had a live video linkup with RPK and he narrated his talk at the SIHRG event in London on the 22nd May 2010. He also took many questions from the floor and spoke for almost an hour keeping the audience entertained and enthralled as only RPK can.
We will prepare a report of the night event and will be posted on the SABM’s website soon. The journey continues and the spirit continues to spread. Last night event was living proof that some Malaysians/ex Malaysians who had chosen to live in another country STILL cares for the country of their birth.
20 May 1992
@u_chemp
Then I have to ask who the Red Shirts are as most people know them as Thaksin supporters who are upset that their socialist leader got kicked out of government. There are people who are paid and poeple who are there at their own free will and there are peopel there just for the daily free food to save money. People can have access to all those satellite TV, Internet, Radio, etc… and they can still be misinformed depending on where they get their news. I’m not judging people as ignorant but I have to point out to the fact that the more you know, the more you realize how much you don’t know. There is so much people don’t know about this world even with access to TV, Internet, Radio, etc… When people vote for people like thaksin that is pro socialism, they are voting for slavery. It is incremental slavery as government slowly take control of life. Have people in the North and East studied the effects of Socialism and the socialist societies like the Union Soviet SOCIALIST Repbulic? The Yellow shirt is also annoying but peopel know the Yellow shirt was formed from Sonthi Limtonkul who was upset with Thakson for not lending him money. The airport was minimally damanged. The Red Shirt was bussed home with 2000 baht given to them by the government, they weren’t thrown into jail. The leaders were arrested because they were leading a movement that turn violent. When the yellow shirt was at the airport, people threw grenade at them. Just having arms doesn’t make you lethal when you are up against trained snipers. The red shirt were not all armed but they did have grenade and guns they used against police and soldier. It is Thaksin that started the terrorist problem in the south. If red shirt win, that means the return of Thaksin or his puppets to Thai Government and the road to Socialism in Thailand. Soclialism is legalized robbery through proxy.
@Uneducated person – Red Shirt are those who support Thaksin and his socialist form of Government. They hate a few rich people so they decide everyone in the country should pay more tax so they can have money. Charity at gunpoint. Forced morality. If they fought for lower taxes and less regulation and free market, I will be worshiping them. But they fight for socialism, more regulation, and free things from government.
@Nuomi
I appreciate both the Red Shirt and Yellow shirt’s enthuasiasm and political activism but I view those who support socialism/communism as my enemy and the enemy of Sovereign Thailand.
The best way to end corruption is not to depend on government for so many things. Stop giving government power so the government officials cannot sell that power to the highest bidder. Decentralize and localize everything. The federal government should serve the provincial government and the provincial government should serve the local government and the local government should serve the people. What I see nowadays is the federal government is acting like some type of ruler.
Thaksin supporters have used heavy weapons and grenades even when the police/soliders were using rubber bullets. the point isn’t so much who is right, it is the blocking of major commercial centers and setting up multiple blockades around bangkok. We all know how bad traffic is in Bangkok. Have they no consideration how much problem that causes? Peopel in the Condos where they were located could not go out to get food. If they want to have a protest, then do it but why the multiple blockades? Why the burning of tires? Why the shopping malls when their quarrel is with government?
I don’t think you really want the military to implement crowd control for that may involved belt fed weapons and firing randomly into the crowd. A massacre is something a government would want to avoid if possible.
Terrorist can be the act of intimidation. Actually the word Terrorist came from France and was used to describe Government actions against the people. I’m no fan of Government but like I said, anyone who supports socialism/communism is my enemy.
What next for Thailand?
@max K 46
“Pharris I think all the evidence you will need to praise the army will be planted in the next few days. ”
If you saw Saturday nights televised briefing for military attaches there you had it. Lots of explosives and guns, supposedly left by the Reds. TV footage, carefully cut, of Red speakers & Thaksin but none of independent news organisations filming the soldiers finding the weaponry.
Very much smacks of the CIA fabrication of evidence approach which I recall they used during the Vietnam war.
@JohnH 47
“This is Thailand” the pharmacist said to me when I went to return 5 tubes of over prescribed drugs to Suan Dok Hospital in Chiang Mai. Just the other day she encountered a similar case, both from the Skin Clinic, she said. “Hospitals are being run like businesses” she added.
@michael 48
The Misery of Culture sure knows how to entertain. Every government TV channel puts on an 8 pm laugh segment every night.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Nick! How could you post this article written by an anonymous on this edutional website?
If so, can I anonymously say that New Mandala is part of Red-shirt Terrorist group against Thailand funded by Australian National University?
Seriously, this forum standard has hit the new low. It’s not about education in South East Asia anymore. It’s more like a group of hatred people against Thailand.
Thai style democracy?
@John To that, I must refer to another Quote from the Great Thomas Jefferson and BenjaminFranklin.
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” – Thomas Jefferson
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety” – Benjamin Franklin
Freedom and Security are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Maximum security means solitary confinement in a penitentiary.
@Steve It is true that African Americans were excluded but if one carefully studies the events leading up to the declaration of independence, the majority of the 13 colonies wanted to free slaves with the main holdout being South Carolina. North Carolina just went along with whatever South Carolina wanted. The original draft of the declaration had one of the grievances to the King, the continual support of slavery and the slave trade. It was removed due to South Carolina refusing to sign unless it was removed. They tried, they weren’t successful and with war looming, they had to get the colonies united or face defeat so they proceeded with the section on slavery removed.
@Michael At the time some of those quotes were made, many of the Colonist were Citizens of the British Empire. The main difference between a Democracy and a Republic is in a Democracy, 99% can vote away the right of 1% of the population (Mob Rule) while in a Republic, 99% can not vote away the PROTECTED right of 1% of the population (Rule by Law). I just saw the word democracy freely used so I wanted to point out what many great men had said about the Democratic form of Government.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Portman,
I don’t disagree with much of what you have to say in comment #30 above. But hasn’t this all been reported on at a level that could be described as obsessive and omnipresent?
I do think that Thaksin’s many flaws need to be aired fully and fairly, which strangely hasn’t happened. I think he is a big part of the problem and probably not part of the solution.
But the other side of the equation has really not been discussed at all. These threads are a very helpful way of addressing that imbalance.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Jennifer –
Your ‘Fickle Fern of Fate’ tickled me – nice.
Thanks 4 your hint. I’m up and flying now.
John Soars with the Eagles
This morn. Monday Bkk 6am, NM is firing on all cylinders, but no proxies etc. required.
What next for Thailand?
Daniel Wolf
Thanks for your response –
I should say from the start that I was a nurse in the UK and have some 24 years experience, working in the Royal Navy treating civilians in the the RN hospitals’ Accident and Emergency Departments in Gosport nr. Portsmouth and Plymouth in the UK, and then as a clinical nurse specialist in resuscitation for the NHS.
First, in Thailand, the standard of care is directly related to how much money you have and your position in society. I have been to a number of hospitals here – state and private – and have been appalled by the uncaring attitude and low standard of care.
Second, innapropriate medicines prescribed – a Thai pharmacist friend in the pharmaceutical industry here tells me that some drug companies give doctors under the table freebies and payments to push their drugs – interestingly not just the exotic or new ones , but also the run of the mill medicines such as antibiotics.
Extra-payments to UK doctors are forbidden by law – yes I know that the pharmaceutical industry world-wide fund research and doctors (and nurses) to attend international conferences etc.
Antibiotics are a very good example. Many Thai people will routinely take them for viral infections – doctors here have told me they prescribe them to protect the patient from getting a secondary bacterial infection due to a lowered immune system. Rubbish, utter rubbish and not scientific. They should be given to patients with increased risk factors such as other underlying disease but not for otherwise healthy people with common, seasonal viral illnesses.
Senior officials in the Thai FDA routinely demand under the table payments to license new medicines for use in Thailand. Last year, an international company MD challenged this at senior govt. level and won, when he threatened to expose this practice in public. He had recorded the conversations – clever guy.
This was never made public. No surprises there eh?
Thai military intelligence in action
I guess I am 1st one who updates the story in OP here ?
alright then :
Looks like mil intel wasn’t so naive after all, coz apparently students finally woke up :
THAILAND: Student movement emerges from the shadows (May 23)
so, did they wake up because of / after their leaders were “interviewed” by CRES ( = junta) – or actually they woke up before that and that’s why CRES invited them for chit-chat ?
here is another article, same date :
THAILAND: Students flee after military crackdown (May 23)
woops ! this sort of plot can’t be found in current Thai MSM news update – which are rather busy with cheerful stories of “beloved Bangkok Clean up” (I guess the message is – cleaning up from “red germs” – as Thinitan described Bangkokians’ attitude recently)
so, in the midst of fanfare & triumph, this sort of news about PADshists / vigilante raising naturally gets missed by Thai Media, no doubt ! it is rather more interested by witch-hunt of “terrorists” – latest news are that one professor Suthachai has been arrested / summoned on terrorist charges – although he has no any clue.
Welcome to Toler-land ! as increasing number of Thais call it now.
(some use words: Lie-land and especially Die-land)
coming back to students though … looks like Deja vu of aftermath of Hoktula ? (6 Oct 1976 – Thammasat massacre, survivors fled to jungle just to STAY ALIVE – not coz they were communists)
interesting that in 70s students fled to North, now some 40 years later they flee to South – despite the insurgency there (or rather precisely because it is there?)
few days before final crackdown (May 19), I think that was on May 14th night – there was short story (well, at least on Twitter, if not on Thai or even foreign MSM) that among other sporadic rallies (at least 6 places were mentioned, as Klong-toei, Ladprao, DinDaeng …) all across Bangkok in support of red-shirts at Ratchaprasong – one of such rallies was by students at Ramkanhaeng Uni. so, why I mention it – because I recall reading on Twitter that at around midnight it was reported that students has dispersed because there was an attack on them there, first bottles thrown, then shots fired.
I guess that was the first time when students fled vigilante (PADshists). now though this article above indicates that it is more serious than that.
so, if it is true and threat is serious and real – then I guess many people will have no choice but run for their lives.
which would certainly mean repeat of 34y.o. history …
What next for Thailand?
What next for creative artists, who have been hamstrung by Thailand’s very tight-arsed Misery of Culture, with its sinister Cultural Surveillance Department?
Well, hopefully they will get a bit of a spurt ahead, because brilliant 39-yr-old Thai film-maker Apichatpong Weerasethakul has just won the Palme d’Or at Cannes for his ‘Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives’! Huzzah!
If Abhisit is smart, he will not only fete ‘Joe’, who has brought honour to a country sadly in need of it, but do a major reshuffle in the Misery of Culture, especially shafting the horrible Kh. Ladda, and all the other grotesques who have been holding back cultural development in this anachronistically prettified country. (In a recent move, the Misery gave half of its miserly film grants to a sequel to the epic ‘Naresuan’, leading many to ask why government assistance should be given to commercial projects quite able to raise finance from investors.)
Kh Ladda famously said, during a censorship debacle when her unit instructed Apichatpong to remove several scenes from his ‘Syndromes & a Century’, “Nobody goes to see films by Apichatpong. Thai people want to see comedy. We like a laugh.” She described Thai film-goers as “uneducated” and went on to say, “They’re not intellectuals, that’s why we need ratings.” The bimbo approach to cultural development: the arts are for decorating an ugly world & keeping its inhabitants stupid. ‘Joe’ removed his film from circulation in Thailand.
There are young writers, visual artists, cinematographers, and music-makers in Thailand whose potential is shriveling up because of the pressure on them to be airheads, trivial, inoffensive and decorative. A lot of them go into advertising. With a bit of support, they could be part of the changes that this society is undergoing, providing opportunities for self-reflection and the discussion of ideas, as they are in other countries. Just give ’em the money, and stand well back!
What next for Thailand?
I agree with most of Stuart’s #3 points but I dislike it that he put it is such a hopeless tone.
It’s true they need to continue with their democratisation and it’s true that Abhitsit must be removed and …. must be dead, but there is no need to put them down by saying they can’t do it and that they won’t even exist in the future.
I like your points, I know you’re sick of the middle class Thais’ relentless naivety (I do too), but please if you can’t suggest something then please just stay objective.
from a Chinese-Thai who supports democracy and prefers to address himself as overseas Chinese.
Giles Ungpakorn on asset seizures, etc
StanG,
How can I tell if Gi Ungpakorn has good ideas or not? He is censored in Thailand.
You and me are deemed to be too stupid to even think about his ideas.
Perhaps I am too stupid. Are you?
What next for Thailand?
@Pharris. Do you really believe that the army was restrained? Sure, they could have killed their prisoners in broad daylight, but how many prisoners and unaccounted for dead have disappeared?
we may never know, and that’s the point.
maybe you should ask better questions like why the government spent millions on antiriot gear for the army, a job and funding that should have been delegated to the police, when they skipped the whole humanitarian crowd control step and proceeded to open fire with snipers and assault rifles in a remarkable breach of accepted practice.(oh yea, i forgot it was self defense because the conscripts were getting massacred first). the army has left scars that won’t heal for a generation.
who gave the order to assassinate? who gave the order to abandon tear gas and batons for sniper scopes and automatic gunfire?
who is going to investigate this when the crime scene is closed to independent scrutiny and the evidence is currently being swept under the carpet by the BMA and volunteers?
Pharris I think all the evidence you will need to praise the army will be planted in the next few days. No need to worry about the witnesses, they will be dead or deported by then.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
anyone got a link please for the Paul Handley pdf?
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Stuart #63 – while I agree with your economic history of why Isaarn has become dominated by the Central Plains and Bangkok,
I think you’re out-dated arguing Isaarn could n’t economically survive as an independent state.
It would simply have to open itself up much more to China and Vietnam, while trying to retain as many economic ties with the remaining Thailand, as possible.
Indeed, to some extent this is already happening along the Mekong basin – have you seen the amount of Chinese commerce in Vientianne and Udon Thani these days, despite the Thai economy still being very closed (in fact in some respects having become more so).
Stuart Goddard #36 :
Yes the consequences would be “onerous” .
And if it is at all possible, probably the best outcome is a more flexible, federal system where Isaarn stays within Thailand with less control from Bangkok. But de-centralisation has been talked about for decades now, with little or no result.
When I asked Marc Askew about this possiblity – pointing to Indonesia’s de-facto de-centralisation since Suharto, his reply was that “the Thai military would never accept it”.
Anyhow, Thailand seems to be going down the worst possible path – with very probably a Pattani-style insurgency taking root in Isaarn. We’re either past the point of no-return, or it’s one minute before midnight on that.
Pattani has been particularly “onerous” on the Thai military, which has been beaten to a stalemate by a far smaller number of insurgents than there are Reds in Isaarn.
Ambassador Kriangsak in the SMH
wow.
among many other shockers that u chemp erroneously asserts, I think it is natural gas coming out of the gulf for the Thais and not oil.
as to the IMF – their (incorrect) policies were pretty much universal if any country wanted money. And even the simplest economic analaysis shows that by the time IMF bashing started (read nationalistic, anti foreign jingoist Thaksin election buildup , i.e blame foreigners for a decade of govt fiscal irresponsibility), the economy was growing rapidly. Paying back or not paying back early was irrevelant to prosperity.
Honestly, do some analysis.
Also please give us the data on those student loan takers who are now in jail. I will personally bail them out – if anyone is there. Or perhaps they were killed extrajudicially!!??
20 May 1992
Benja:
I believe most of the seasoned readers here all agree with the fact that Taksin was a corrupt PM (just like all the PMs that came before him). As for ‘but then Taksin is the most corrupted ever’ counter-argument, well, as far as I can remember in Thailand, every election was declared the most corrupted ever by the local media and I’d like to candidly attribute that to a natural economic process called ‘inflation’.
I also believe that most of the seasoned readers here know that some of the money that financed this Red Shirt protest came from Taksin. That is obvious. I also know many from overseas sending money back to their relatives, and I know of fund-raising efforts up north.
I also know a good number of Isaan waitresses and cooks overseas sending news home from abroad because their relatives and friends complain ‘one get depress watching TV or listening to radio in Thailand because the government is spending all the time looking for the next thing to blame on Taksin instead of running the country’. I translated some of those Economist, Guardian, BBC, NYT, SMH, WSJ, Aljareeza etc articles for them.
The point here is, Taksin is not a good guy and we all know it – really we are not that ‘stupid’, but most of the seasoned readers here also acknowledged that Taksin is smart and find it hard to attribute too many accusations of stupid acts to him even as we acknowledge that even the smartest people makes mistakes.
We all know the Red Shirts have arms – various international media had shown the red shirts showing off the weapons they confiscated from the army personals during that bungled April 10 operation. We also know there are hardcore elements in that group – just as there are hardcore elements in the yellow camp.
With respect to the ‘arsenal of weapons’ the Ahbisit Government claimed belonged to the ‘terrorists’. I mean, simply try listening to this: Dangerous red shirt terrorists numbering nearly 5000 armed with an arsenal of AK rifles, machine guns, bombs, and grenade launchers charged into battle as soon the the army armored vehicles stormed through their barricade. At the end of the battle, with tens of terrorists dead and hundreds, perhaps a thousand more injured, the army finally restored some semblance of peace to the city with only one known casualty who was possibly down by friendly sniper fire. Hundreds of homemade slingshots were confiscated…
The second issue that plague me beyond the standard fact that riot control is normally a police domain (Seriously, don’t give me the Taksin is former police spew – I am referring to the fact that Thai police were never properly trained for riot control and this duty is always undertaken by the army that is supposedly trained to fight external enemies issue) is this: The army supposedly vastly outnumber the protesters. They were fully armed and armored. PM Ahbisit assured us that the area is fully contained surrounded by tanks and barbed wires. No one was supposed to have been able to have gone in and out. (Note that such cordoning is rarely airtight but it should make entry and exit ‘difficult’.) Yet within minutes of the army breaking through the barricades, an enraged mob possibly three thousand strong from that camp was rampaging through the streets of Bangkok destroying properties. How did they get out so fast? What kind of ‘successful’ crowd control is that? Why were they allowed to ‘pour out’ of their encampment rampage through town? These dangerous and heavily armed red shirt terrorists with grenade launchers, who were so angry with the army firing at them sniping them off one by one, that instead of dragging the soldiers out of their army vehicles and beating them up or firing grenades into those vehicles, they went pass the armed soldiers without getting killed, and then proceed to the various buildings, put aside their unused grenade launchers and proceed to use petrol that one can easily get from any parked cars to set fires to various buildings?
I have already stated in an earlier post what the angry mob had done was wrong and illegal. So I agree with you, the protest at the end is not peaceful. It degenerated into an angry mob. Note I used the word mob, an out of control mob. The difference is, mob means arrest and trial and charged and jail. Terrorists mean one can kill in the name of self-defence. See that difference?
And as far as terrorizing goes, one really do not need to kill a lot, just enough to terrorize – now that is the way of the master terrorist.