It is ok to maintain the continuity of ones culture while establishing a new national identity. Malaysia should allow different religions and ethnic groups to maintain their separate identity and at the same time trying to foster a national identity. In Canada or USA, they achieve that.
Your rather bleak either/or prescription for Chinese-descended people living in Southeast Asian countries seems based in a heavily racialized approach to just about everything.
You are, of course, welcome to such a viewpoint, but it does seem to make it impossible for you to either recognize or understand the situation and history of the Chinese in Thailand.
If all development lifted people out of poverty, then this might be a valid point. But not all development is created equal, and the projects planned for Cambodia are slow to progress (if they do at all). They’re not creating employment and they’re not boosting the local economy.
So in this case, being poor with income is undoubtedly better than being poor without any income at all.
It is quite common for Peninsula Chinese to discriminate against Thai-Chinese on the grounds that they have ‘gone native’ and are no longer proper Chinese.
Peninsula Chinese have reacted to often unfavourable circumstances in Malaysia by reinforcing their cultural identity and ‘putting it on a pedestal’. The Thai-Chinese approach is different but it is not in any sense inferior.
As for ‘…Thai Chinese who pretended to be more Thai than Thais by denying Chinese ancestry so as to cover up the fact of not knowing anything about Chinese language or culture…’ it is worth remembering that, notwithstanding the cultural contribution of the Mon-Khmer, the Thais are a Yunnanese minority, so it is actually more the case that the Thai-Chinese have absorbed the Thais than the other way around.
Being “dirt poor” is never a choice. Western liberal types keep harping about preservation of “lifestyles”. What lifestyle may I ask? “Dirt poor” lifestyle, where the next meal is not “what do want for dinner?”, but “is there any dinner?”
Go try living “dirt poor” for a few months, then re-post. Or simply try eating only boiled rice and cheap soy sauce for a few months – been there for years and never want to go back!
Chris, you don’t seem to know Malaysia very well! Inter-marriage? If you marrry a Buddhist, you are not required to become a buddhist and give up your up bringing and culture. If you marry a Christian, you are not required to do so either.
In Malaysia, if you marry a Muslim, you MUST convert to Islam and follow all the practices – no pork etc etc.
Given the way Islamisation (talibanism rather) is going in Malaysia at this moment, the chances of inter-marriage with Muslim malays are getting less and less. One have to be sick in the head to consider surrendering all of one’s freedom, including having dinner with one’s non-muslim relatives at their homes….
This article misses the point made by one of the commenters; anti-Chinese bigotry never went away. The perception of a Chinese-Indonesian foray into Indonesia’s political arena (the #2 elected position no less) is, however, a new development. The article should have made the huge differences between the two contexts a lot clearer. For starters, the demographics are really different. Urban Chinese Malaysians in/around KL and Penang make up around half the population. Chinese Indonesians make up less than 3% of Indonesia’s population – even in urban settings like Surabaya and Jakarta they are a small minority (i.e. less than 7%). Whereas in business and industry, across the full spectrum of Indonesia’s two-track economy, powerful Chinese families comprehensively dominate. Ahok’s phenomenal rise notwithstanding, the voter sweet spot usually lies lies somewhere between TNI/POLRI, the Muslim lobby, political elites and what the market dominant minority (i.e. ethnic-Chinese) will pay for. Typically, Chinese Indonesians pay and the other three cohorts play (albeit ministerial slots for ethnic-Chinese appear to be less controversial). One wonders if upsetting the balance – such as it is – could bring a lot of barely concealed ethnic tension to the surface. In over 30+ years living in Indonesia, I have consistently observed deeply held animosities towards ethnic-Chinese – animosities that are reinforced every day as the ‘have-nots’ bear witness to the obscene wealth and dominance of Chinese Indonesian business elites and their pribumi cronies.
Being forced to appear and speak Thai is in and of itself a form of persecution, albeit a mild one at that. As I said, the Chinese cannot expect to be treated like a native to any of the Southeast Asian countries until and unless they gain full political power and relegate the native populations to a subsidiary position, as what happened to Australia, New Zealand and Singapore. Before that, they would invariably have no option but to assimilate like Thai Chinese, or maintain their distinct Chinese identity but live with limited political power as in Malaysia.
It is ridiculous for Cohen to call me “anti-Semitic” when I am proudly part Jewish, and a strongly support the Zionist State. My comment was simply about the way the vast majority of Malaysian Muslims would undoubtedly – by his own admissions – view his comments. You can not have it both ways Cohen – and then resort to canards if you want to avoid looking ridiculous.
No, in fact, I have thousands of Malaysians friends, mostly Malay in fact, and I am quite sure of about 40 of them that would laugh at your comment and call you “kurang ajar”. If you are trying to win Islamic friends with your uncouth anti-Semitism, I suggest you tweet Mahathir, as NM as not the appropriate venue for your filthy mouth and twisted mind.
Don’t prevaricate. I could have sworn that you abide by the UN flimsy. I said that the treatment of Malaysian-Chinese should MEET UN human rights conditions, not that it actually happens in reality. The selectivity of the UN is not an excuse for racism against Malaysian Chinese. Despite the nonsense of you and Beale, it is not I that has to live up to the Geneva Conventions and UN human rights statutes, arguments long made by Malaysian activists themselves.
The more I learn about Snowden’s disclosures, the more I believe the widespread reliance on American internet companies is a serious security threat. For me, I’m pretty sure NSA has an automatically generated folder on me nobody is looking at for now. But once you start to make noises worthy of an investigation, everything you said online can be found all under one place. You leave behind linguistic fingerprints, keystroke fingerprints, user agents and countless other data. Data mining is popular for good reasons. Facebook can even predict who you are going to date. Don’t be surprised if Americans know what decision an internet-savvy future Myanmar President will make before that President begins to think about it. Privacy on the internet is a joke.
Facebook can also manipulate foreign elections, especially contested ones. CIA can force Facebook to make some posts more visible than others. If people are electing a candidate the US disagrees with, don’t be surprised when some scandals go viral on social media.
There’s too little mention of INTERMARRIAGE here. Thailand’s King is part Chinese. The very high rate of inter-marriage, throughout Thailand (except Patani) is both cause and effect of higher tolerance than elsewhere. This point needs to be made more explicit.
Herr Cohen erupted: “Whether recent or old immigrants, the Chinese can be expected to be treated with respect and according to all UN Convention of Human Rights. That is not negotiable.”
I could have sworn you thought the UNCHR and all that brainwashing twaddle was never applicable in a “whether or not” sort of way, because surely “whether or not” the Rohingya are illegal, autochthones, or just grown up anchor babies they can be expected to be treated with respect and according to all UN Convention of Human Rights. That is not negotiable.
Money and corruption has become a psychological proxy or surrogate for Cambodians unable to deal with the Khmer Rouge years. It is understandable why some might rush headlong into speculative investments. No Cambodian wants to keep the past with them. But Hun Sen has done nothing to encourage a national dialogue, talking more with Beijing than average Khmers, within whom he instills fear. Cambodia is not Vietnam. There is no sustaining infrastructure in Cambodia to bolster investment, whether finance or tourism (and the Cardamom Mountains have already been declared a UNESCO and CITES Zone of floral and faunal endemism and protection). Given how the Khmer Rouge gutted people and primeval forests, environmental preservation should be a priority, along with environmental tourism. One of the best ways to honour what you have lost is to protect what remains. Given China’s and Hun Sen’s dominant influence in Cambodia, that is an unlikely prospect.
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A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Neptunian – what you say about about Buddhism compared to Islam is EXACTLY WHY I thought inter-marriage should be explicitly mentioned.
Searching for Singapore’s soul
Singaporean humour is ‘British’?
Very much doubt that, and which ethnic group of Singaporeans would that pertain to if it were so?
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
It is ok to maintain the continuity of ones culture while establishing a new national identity. Malaysia should allow different religions and ethnic groups to maintain their separate identity and at the same time trying to foster a national identity. In Canada or USA, they achieve that.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Your rather bleak either/or prescription for Chinese-descended people living in Southeast Asian countries seems based in a heavily racialized approach to just about everything.
You are, of course, welcome to such a viewpoint, but it does seem to make it impossible for you to either recognize or understand the situation and history of the Chinese in Thailand.
Have you ever heard of Pridi Banomyong?
The hidden cost of Cambodia’s coastal development
If all development lifted people out of poverty, then this might be a valid point. But not all development is created equal, and the projects planned for Cambodia are slow to progress (if they do at all). They’re not creating employment and they’re not boosting the local economy.
So in this case, being poor with income is undoubtedly better than being poor without any income at all.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
It is quite common for Peninsula Chinese to discriminate against Thai-Chinese on the grounds that they have ‘gone native’ and are no longer proper Chinese.
Peninsula Chinese have reacted to often unfavourable circumstances in Malaysia by reinforcing their cultural identity and ‘putting it on a pedestal’. The Thai-Chinese approach is different but it is not in any sense inferior.
As for ‘…Thai Chinese who pretended to be more Thai than Thais by denying Chinese ancestry so as to cover up the fact of not knowing anything about Chinese language or culture…’ it is worth remembering that, notwithstanding the cultural contribution of the Mon-Khmer, the Thais are a Yunnanese minority, so it is actually more the case that the Thai-Chinese have absorbed the Thais than the other way around.
The hidden cost of Cambodia’s coastal development
Being “dirt poor” is never a choice. Western liberal types keep harping about preservation of “lifestyles”. What lifestyle may I ask? “Dirt poor” lifestyle, where the next meal is not “what do want for dinner?”, but “is there any dinner?”
Go try living “dirt poor” for a few months, then re-post. Or simply try eating only boiled rice and cheap soy sauce for a few months – been there for years and never want to go back!
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Chris, you don’t seem to know Malaysia very well! Inter-marriage? If you marrry a Buddhist, you are not required to become a buddhist and give up your up bringing and culture. If you marry a Christian, you are not required to do so either.
In Malaysia, if you marry a Muslim, you MUST convert to Islam and follow all the practices – no pork etc etc.
Given the way Islamisation (talibanism rather) is going in Malaysia at this moment, the chances of inter-marriage with Muslim malays are getting less and less. One have to be sick in the head to consider surrendering all of one’s freedom, including having dinner with one’s non-muslim relatives at their homes….
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
This article misses the point made by one of the commenters; anti-Chinese bigotry never went away. The perception of a Chinese-Indonesian foray into Indonesia’s political arena (the #2 elected position no less) is, however, a new development. The article should have made the huge differences between the two contexts a lot clearer. For starters, the demographics are really different. Urban Chinese Malaysians in/around KL and Penang make up around half the population. Chinese Indonesians make up less than 3% of Indonesia’s population – even in urban settings like Surabaya and Jakarta they are a small minority (i.e. less than 7%). Whereas in business and industry, across the full spectrum of Indonesia’s two-track economy, powerful Chinese families comprehensively dominate. Ahok’s phenomenal rise notwithstanding, the voter sweet spot usually lies lies somewhere between TNI/POLRI, the Muslim lobby, political elites and what the market dominant minority (i.e. ethnic-Chinese) will pay for. Typically, Chinese Indonesians pay and the other three cohorts play (albeit ministerial slots for ethnic-Chinese appear to be less controversial). One wonders if upsetting the balance – such as it is – could bring a lot of barely concealed ethnic tension to the surface. In over 30+ years living in Indonesia, I have consistently observed deeply held animosities towards ethnic-Chinese – animosities that are reinforced every day as the ‘have-nots’ bear witness to the obscene wealth and dominance of Chinese Indonesian business elites and their pribumi cronies.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Being forced to appear and speak Thai is in and of itself a form of persecution, albeit a mild one at that. As I said, the Chinese cannot expect to be treated like a native to any of the Southeast Asian countries until and unless they gain full political power and relegate the native populations to a subsidiary position, as what happened to Australia, New Zealand and Singapore. Before that, they would invariably have no option but to assimilate like Thai Chinese, or maintain their distinct Chinese identity but live with limited political power as in Malaysia.
The Duterte paradox
Duterte should shoot himself because I have this strong suspicion that he is very high on drugs: “Philippines leader likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug users.” (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-philippines-duterte-hitler-idUSKCN1200B9?il=0)
There is no other way to explain why he thinks he should it is a very good idea to kill three million Filipino addicts.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
“THOUSANDS of Malaysian friends” Peter Cohen ? No doubt they call you Datuk Cohen !
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
It is ridiculous for Cohen to call me “anti-Semitic” when I am proudly part Jewish, and a strongly support the Zionist State. My comment was simply about the way the vast majority of Malaysian Muslims would undoubtedly – by his own admissions – view his comments. You can not have it both ways Cohen – and then resort to canards if you want to avoid looking ridiculous.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
No, in fact, I have thousands of Malaysians friends, mostly Malay in fact, and I am quite sure of about 40 of them that would laugh at your comment and call you “kurang ajar”. If you are trying to win Islamic friends with your uncouth anti-Semitism, I suggest you tweet Mahathir, as NM as not the appropriate venue for your filthy mouth and twisted mind.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Mr Wilson,
Don’t prevaricate. I could have sworn that you abide by the UN flimsy. I said that the treatment of Malaysian-Chinese should MEET UN human rights conditions, not that it actually happens in reality. The selectivity of the UN is not an excuse for racism against Malaysian Chinese. Despite the nonsense of you and Beale, it is not I that has to live up to the Geneva Conventions and UN human rights statutes, arguments long made by Malaysian activists themselves.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
The vast majority of Malaysian Muslims will view this Jew Cohen as simply an imperialist Zionist, trying to control them, trying to divide them.
Millions of ‘likes’ but leadership lacking
The more I learn about Snowden’s disclosures, the more I believe the widespread reliance on American internet companies is a serious security threat. For me, I’m pretty sure NSA has an automatically generated folder on me nobody is looking at for now. But once you start to make noises worthy of an investigation, everything you said online can be found all under one place. You leave behind linguistic fingerprints, keystroke fingerprints, user agents and countless other data. Data mining is popular for good reasons. Facebook can even predict who you are going to date. Don’t be surprised if Americans know what decision an internet-savvy future Myanmar President will make before that President begins to think about it. Privacy on the internet is a joke.
Facebook can also manipulate foreign elections, especially contested ones. CIA can force Facebook to make some posts more visible than others. If people are electing a candidate the US disagrees with, don’t be surprised when some scandals go viral on social media.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
There’s too little mention of INTERMARRIAGE here. Thailand’s King is part Chinese. The very high rate of inter-marriage, throughout Thailand (except Patani) is both cause and effect of higher tolerance than elsewhere. This point needs to be made more explicit.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Herr Cohen erupted: “Whether recent or old immigrants, the Chinese can be expected to be treated with respect and according to all UN Convention of Human Rights. That is not negotiable.”
I could have sworn you thought the UNCHR and all that brainwashing twaddle was never applicable in a “whether or not” sort of way, because surely “whether or not” the Rohingya are illegal, autochthones, or just grown up anchor babies they can be expected to be treated with respect and according to all UN Convention of Human Rights. That is not negotiable.
Right?
The hidden cost of Cambodia’s coastal development
Money and corruption has become a psychological proxy or surrogate for Cambodians unable to deal with the Khmer Rouge years. It is understandable why some might rush headlong into speculative investments. No Cambodian wants to keep the past with them. But Hun Sen has done nothing to encourage a national dialogue, talking more with Beijing than average Khmers, within whom he instills fear. Cambodia is not Vietnam. There is no sustaining infrastructure in Cambodia to bolster investment, whether finance or tourism (and the Cardamom Mountains have already been declared a UNESCO and CITES Zone of floral and faunal endemism and protection). Given how the Khmer Rouge gutted people and primeval forests, environmental preservation should be a priority, along with environmental tourism. One of the best ways to honour what you have lost is to protect what remains. Given China’s and Hun Sen’s dominant influence in Cambodia, that is an unlikely prospect.