Notwithstanding your reliance on your local restaurant you might need to learn how to fend for yourself or take a sojourn upcountry and enjoy some fresh air.
I ate daily at a Thai restaurant that is almost entirely expat in patronage.
The owner is an articulate Thai
In a hushed voice this morning, I enquired whether the restaurant will stay open in the event of the worst happening. For many of us it is the source of our food, an important consideration.
For the first time in all the years I have known her, her face went completely blank. Recovering her composure she simply said ” We will do what the government tells us” That actually is no help at all because it may even be confusing as to who is in charge. And this is a restaurant that almost never closes, it might become chaos as we search for food amongst the rubble
After multiple reads of this “cheeky” article, I still can’t determine if it is serious when it cheers, “Good taste, cultural sensitivities and the indelible rights of sovereign states win again!”. Is it really “wonderful to see” people thrown in jail for “poor taste”, “gross insensitivities”, and “sheer stupidity”? I’m no expert, but I am willing to bet that none of those are crimes in Malaysia. So instead, as the article points out, the prosecution searched through its arsenal of vaguely formulated laws against thought crimes, like “intentional insult” (both “intent” and “insult” only occur in the mind, so how is it proven?), and “insulting Malaysia’s national flag” (when did a rag on a stick evolve to sentience?), finally settling on “public nuisance” – the catch-all law. No one will ask: just what public function did they impair – traffic movement, work, sleep?
Whether we like these people and what they did or not, remember that law cases depend on precedent. Once you accept that the state should be the arbiter of taste, with jail as punishment for ‘poor taste”, don’t complain when the same laws are used against your heroes – political dissidents.
When a certain aspiring un leader was just a not so humble backbencher, he jetted into west timor after the vote to tell local church leaders what they should do. Meeting the bishop of atambua, he was told that oecussi must remain with indon. Present also was a deacon who moonlighted as a militia boss. They went away convinced aust govt agreed with them about oecussi, and took the action they thought necessary.
Btw oecussi had been 80% pro integ til a massive bribery campaign in the last weeks before the vote reduced that to half. Poor old jose anuno went to Dili to complain he couldn’t match prokem bribery, counterfeit and iou notes. The journo, prokem, wouldn’t run the story. Same journo refused to run a great piece of poetry from a woman in Oecussi, about menfolk who deserted their pregnant wives ‘for rumours of freedom.’ The poem wasn’t patriotic enough. Or, it too accurately described East Tiimorese men in general. Or both.
My point has always been very simple: there were state hegemony, an ugly nationalist ideology and even violence behind the ostensibly smooth assimilation of various ethnic groups in Thailand today (and you can see I am not just talking about Thai Chinese). Despite that, the ultra-strong Thai state continues to meet resistance here and there, as can be seen in the volatile situation in the south and, to some extent, in the northeast.
If requesting Wilson to substantiate his statements constitutes ‘internet trolls’, then perhaps I have overestimated his intellectual capability 🙂
You are just going to have to carry on without me, Fei Tai Hua.
I agree 100% with that quote and its indictment of the Thai state ramming an assimilationist fist right down the throats of southern Malay Muslims.
Nothing remotely similar has ever taken place in Thai-Chinese-SinoThai relations.
You have to wonder though why it is that the conflict has intensified since Sino-Thais more or less took over the state that is doing the assimilationist fisting.
It’s been a pleasure, but your agenda is your agenda and of little interest to me.
Whatever you think you are proving about the state and status of Thais of Chinese descent by referencing the conflict in the south, Australian aborigines and Amerindian genocide is a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, of course I recognize all the strategies of a dyed-in-the-wool “internet troll”, but you keep mentioning that this is NM as if that should keep us free of such lowball nonsense.
“… the problems began just after 1900, when the government began to extend the power of the state into the peripheral regions of the kingdom. These regions, such as Pattani in the south and Isaan in the northeast, had long been autonomous regions where local affairs were managed by local elites, according to local customs. These regions were also home to non-Thai speaking ethnic groups, who were closely related to populations across international borders. As the Thai state penetrated these regions, local affairs came under the control of officials sent from Bangkok who did not understand local customs or speak the local language. The situation in both regions deteriorated during the military-dominated regimes of the 1940s through the 1970s. These governments imposed heavy-handed assimilation policies that forced minorities to adopt central Thai language and customs, further centralized political authority, and suppressed political dissent. It was during this period that the ethnic Malay groups in the south, and leftist factions in Isaan, were beginning to separately organize their resistance movements.
The origins of these two conflicts can be found in the history of centralized authority, forced assimilation of ethnic minorities, and the failure of the government to address the political grievances of the local population.”
No, just Mongolian models. All the Chinese that might have been murdered since 1969, moved (wisely) to Australia. You are as naïve as Emperor Wilson. A 1965 Indonesia-like episode is hardly out of the question in Malaysia. The absence of concentration camps does not mean Malaysia is tranquil and tolerant.
Jokowi cares very much for the poor
He is also a Brilliant business man
But money is a tool for the good of us all
My last visit to Bogor in 2014
My Indonesian working(middle) class mates Very happy with Joko
I am Scottish So Roll on Joko
I still would like Wilson to provide some concrete evidence of Chinese Malaysians being murdered for their ethnicity in Malaysia so that a more meaningful and substantive discussion can ensue. If one thinks of the May 13 Incident, please bear in mind that it was a riot most probably engineered by the highest echelons of Umno, a reason why the ruling party has been refusing to launch a proper investigation but using it for political gains. I happened to visit the graveyard where many of those killed in the riot were buried and, guess what? There were Chinese, Indians and Malays among them, indicating that it was nothing like what happened to the Jews in Europe or native Americans or aborigines or southern Thai Malays, all of whom have been systematically targeted for killing by the powers-that-be.
Other than May 13, I can’t really think of any murder based on ethnicity in Malaysia, although deaths in custody involving ethnic Indians are often reported, just as the blacks in America are far more likely to be shot dead than the whites.
Last time I checked, several race-based massacres that occurred in Malaya/Malaysia over the past century were committed by either the Japanese or the British, ie. during WWII occupation and Batang Kali.
And Malaysia has witnessed nothing like what has been happening in southern Thailand, where the death toll continues to rise and the Malays there continue to live in fear on account of their ethnicity and religion. Remember: don’t just look at the assimilation issue from a Thai Chinese perspective, but from a Thai Malay perspective as well, just like whether October 10 is the Columbus Day or Indigenous Day would depend on whom one talks to, no?
Of course, the political climate in Malaysia is toxic, as it has been for decades. But many Chinese having been ‘murdered for ethnicity’? This is news to me. 🙂
At no point in this exchange have I attempted to “portray Thailand as being free of ethnic religious issues”. Once again you feel the need to whip together a little straw man in order to distract from what is actually being talked about here.
You have insisted that Sino Thais have been oppressed and victimized by the Thai state “for centuries” of “forced assimilation”. Anyone with a glancing familiarity with the “historical record” (which goes beyond the few decades when the Thai state did deliberately target Chinese Thais) knows that this is exaggeration and nonsense.
And mein Herr Cohen: As usual you seem to misunderstand what I was saying since your “disagreement” is just a reinforcement of what I have been saying in this drawn-out debate. It looks bad for bigots when one of their lot can’t read for comprehension.
I quote again: “how Malaysian Chinese today are who they are because they’ve been murdered for their ethnicity in the lifetimes of many…”
So black Americans, aborigines, Southern Thai Malays and black south Africans too have been killed for their ethnicity and all this represents a unique historical experience that has shaped their understanding of ethnicity today, no?
No one denies race or ethnicity plays an important role in Malaysia; it certainly does. But to portray Thailand as being free of ethnic religious issues is as good as saying Australia and the US are ‘post-racial’. Just go to the south and talk to the local Malays, as I have done on numerous occasions 🙂
Really, Mr. Wilson, I am sure Thailand is brimming with ultranationalist Thai NGOs calling Sino-Thais the Thai version of “Pendatang” and threatening their heads. But then, how would you know if such ultras were pure Thai or had Chinese blood ? Get a grip. Thailand is NOT Malaysia and ethnic Chinese are treated far better in Bangkok where they predominate anyway. There is no comparison. Even in Indonesia, ethnic Chinese today are generally more free than in wealthier Malaysia. I know few NM readers can read Malay and thus do not read Utusan and Harakah and all the vitriol and garbage printed there.
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What now?
I acted on your advice immediately Shane, I am upcountry
What now?
Sorry I meant the remark for Hugh.
What now?
Notwithstanding your reliance on your local restaurant you might need to learn how to fend for yourself or take a sojourn upcountry and enjoy some fresh air.
What now?
Why is October so often the month when major sad things happen in Thailand ?
What now?
Really good observation by ” McCann”
We really do not know where all this is going.
I ate daily at a Thai restaurant that is almost entirely expat in patronage.
The owner is an articulate Thai
In a hushed voice this morning, I enquired whether the restaurant will stay open in the event of the worst happening. For many of us it is the source of our food, an important consideration.
For the first time in all the years I have known her, her face went completely blank. Recovering her composure she simply said ” We will do what the government tells us” That actually is no help at all because it may even be confusing as to who is in charge. And this is a restaurant that almost never closes, it might become chaos as we search for food amongst the rubble
Of flags on bums and castrated courts
After multiple reads of this “cheeky” article, I still can’t determine if it is serious when it cheers, “Good taste, cultural sensitivities and the indelible rights of sovereign states win again!”. Is it really “wonderful to see” people thrown in jail for “poor taste”, “gross insensitivities”, and “sheer stupidity”? I’m no expert, but I am willing to bet that none of those are crimes in Malaysia. So instead, as the article points out, the prosecution searched through its arsenal of vaguely formulated laws against thought crimes, like “intentional insult” (both “intent” and “insult” only occur in the mind, so how is it proven?), and “insulting Malaysia’s national flag” (when did a rag on a stick evolve to sentience?), finally settling on “public nuisance” – the catch-all law. No one will ask: just what public function did they impair – traffic movement, work, sleep?
Whether we like these people and what they did or not, remember that law cases depend on precedent. Once you accept that the state should be the arbiter of taste, with jail as punishment for ‘poor taste”, don’t complain when the same laws are used against your heroes – political dissidents.
Or does justice only matter for people we like?
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Which is why it is bittersweet that it has been colonised by immigrant Chinese!
Inside the Oecussi Enclave
When a certain aspiring un leader was just a not so humble backbencher, he jetted into west timor after the vote to tell local church leaders what they should do. Meeting the bishop of atambua, he was told that oecussi must remain with indon. Present also was a deacon who moonlighted as a militia boss. They went away convinced aust govt agreed with them about oecussi, and took the action they thought necessary.
Btw oecussi had been 80% pro integ til a massive bribery campaign in the last weeks before the vote reduced that to half. Poor old jose anuno went to Dili to complain he couldn’t match prokem bribery, counterfeit and iou notes. The journo, prokem, wouldn’t run the story. Same journo refused to run a great piece of poetry from a woman in Oecussi, about menfolk who deserted their pregnant wives ‘for rumours of freedom.’ The poem wasn’t patriotic enough. Or, it too accurately described East Tiimorese men in general. Or both.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Do Chinese who emigrate present more problems than say Irish who also emigrate to different parts of the world? I wonder.
Malaysia’s secular versus religious divide
Challenge on points, not on slogans
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
My point has always been very simple: there were state hegemony, an ugly nationalist ideology and even violence behind the ostensibly smooth assimilation of various ethnic groups in Thailand today (and you can see I am not just talking about Thai Chinese). Despite that, the ultra-strong Thai state continues to meet resistance here and there, as can be seen in the volatile situation in the south and, to some extent, in the northeast.
If requesting Wilson to substantiate his statements constitutes ‘internet trolls’, then perhaps I have overestimated his intellectual capability 🙂
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
You are just going to have to carry on without me, Fei Tai Hua.
I agree 100% with that quote and its indictment of the Thai state ramming an assimilationist fist right down the throats of southern Malay Muslims.
Nothing remotely similar has ever taken place in Thai-Chinese-SinoThai relations.
You have to wonder though why it is that the conflict has intensified since Sino-Thais more or less took over the state that is doing the assimilationist fisting.
It’s been a pleasure, but your agenda is your agenda and of little interest to me.
Whatever you think you are proving about the state and status of Thais of Chinese descent by referencing the conflict in the south, Australian aborigines and Amerindian genocide is a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, of course I recognize all the strategies of a dyed-in-the-wool “internet troll”, but you keep mentioning that this is NM as if that should keep us free of such lowball nonsense.
Enjoy!
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
I quote:
“… the problems began just after 1900, when the government began to extend the power of the state into the peripheral regions of the kingdom. These regions, such as Pattani in the south and Isaan in the northeast, had long been autonomous regions where local affairs were managed by local elites, according to local customs. These regions were also home to non-Thai speaking ethnic groups, who were closely related to populations across international borders. As the Thai state penetrated these regions, local affairs came under the control of officials sent from Bangkok who did not understand local customs or speak the local language. The situation in both regions deteriorated during the military-dominated regimes of the 1940s through the 1970s. These governments imposed heavy-handed assimilation policies that forced minorities to adopt central Thai language and customs, further centralized political authority, and suppressed political dissent. It was during this period that the ethnic Malay groups in the south, and leftist factions in Isaan, were beginning to separately organize their resistance movements.
The origins of these two conflicts can be found in the history of centralized authority, forced assimilation of ethnic minorities, and the failure of the government to address the political grievances of the local population.”
http://asiafoundation.org/2008/04/30/in-thailand-violent-conflict-past-and-present/
Hope, cynicism and Jokowi in a Jakarta slum
Indonesia’s population hampirTiga Ratus Juta
Sabarlah !
Give Jokowi a break
He’s got a Mammoth job
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
No, just Mongolian models. All the Chinese that might have been murdered since 1969, moved (wisely) to Australia. You are as naïve as Emperor Wilson. A 1965 Indonesia-like episode is hardly out of the question in Malaysia. The absence of concentration camps does not mean Malaysia is tranquil and tolerant.
Hope, cynicism and Jokowi in a Jakarta slum
Jokowi cares very much for the poor
He is also a Brilliant business man
But money is a tool for the good of us all
My last visit to Bogor in 2014
My Indonesian working(middle) class mates Very happy with Joko
I am Scottish So Roll on Joko
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
I still would like Wilson to provide some concrete evidence of Chinese Malaysians being murdered for their ethnicity in Malaysia so that a more meaningful and substantive discussion can ensue. If one thinks of the May 13 Incident, please bear in mind that it was a riot most probably engineered by the highest echelons of Umno, a reason why the ruling party has been refusing to launch a proper investigation but using it for political gains. I happened to visit the graveyard where many of those killed in the riot were buried and, guess what? There were Chinese, Indians and Malays among them, indicating that it was nothing like what happened to the Jews in Europe or native Americans or aborigines or southern Thai Malays, all of whom have been systematically targeted for killing by the powers-that-be.
Other than May 13, I can’t really think of any murder based on ethnicity in Malaysia, although deaths in custody involving ethnic Indians are often reported, just as the blacks in America are far more likely to be shot dead than the whites.
Last time I checked, several race-based massacres that occurred in Malaya/Malaysia over the past century were committed by either the Japanese or the British, ie. during WWII occupation and Batang Kali.
And Malaysia has witnessed nothing like what has been happening in southern Thailand, where the death toll continues to rise and the Malays there continue to live in fear on account of their ethnicity and religion. Remember: don’t just look at the assimilation issue from a Thai Chinese perspective, but from a Thai Malay perspective as well, just like whether October 10 is the Columbus Day or Indigenous Day would depend on whom one talks to, no?
Of course, the political climate in Malaysia is toxic, as it has been for decades. But many Chinese having been ‘murdered for ethnicity’? This is news to me. 🙂
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
At no point in this exchange have I attempted to “portray Thailand as being free of ethnic religious issues”. Once again you feel the need to whip together a little straw man in order to distract from what is actually being talked about here.
You have insisted that Sino Thais have been oppressed and victimized by the Thai state “for centuries” of “forced assimilation”. Anyone with a glancing familiarity with the “historical record” (which goes beyond the few decades when the Thai state did deliberately target Chinese Thais) knows that this is exaggeration and nonsense.
And mein Herr Cohen: As usual you seem to misunderstand what I was saying since your “disagreement” is just a reinforcement of what I have been saying in this drawn-out debate. It looks bad for bigots when one of their lot can’t read for comprehension.
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
I quote again: “how Malaysian Chinese today are who they are because they’ve been murdered for their ethnicity in the lifetimes of many…”
So black Americans, aborigines, Southern Thai Malays and black south Africans too have been killed for their ethnicity and all this represents a unique historical experience that has shaped their understanding of ethnicity today, no?
No one denies race or ethnicity plays an important role in Malaysia; it certainly does. But to portray Thailand as being free of ethnic religious issues is as good as saying Australia and the US are ‘post-racial’. Just go to the south and talk to the local Malays, as I have done on numerous occasions 🙂
A rise in anti-Chinese rhetoric
Really, Mr. Wilson, I am sure Thailand is brimming with ultranationalist Thai NGOs calling Sino-Thais the Thai version of “Pendatang” and threatening their heads. But then, how would you know if such ultras were pure Thai or had Chinese blood ? Get a grip. Thailand is NOT Malaysia and ethnic Chinese are treated far better in Bangkok where they predominate anyway. There is no comparison. Even in Indonesia, ethnic Chinese today are generally more free than in wealthier Malaysia. I know few NM readers can read Malay and thus do not read Utusan and Harakah and all the vitriol and garbage printed there.