I’ve just returned from a visit to a Lahu village in northern Thailand. Ban Pong Hai is a valley away from the main Lahu millage Mai Ai and about 45 minutes outside of Fang (a 3 hour drive from Chiangmai). The development of rubber plantations there is driven by a Bangkok developer who married into the Lahu community. The people that I spoke to have a hard time developing their land as they would like for lack of capital. Lychee and orange plantations predominate but many of the locals would like to develop rubber. It was interesting to see the scale of the irrigation projects that accompanied these orchards. Many of them had been put into place in conjunction with the provincial university out of Chiangmai.
These Lahu are now tied quite firmly to the land and their villages will not be moving now that they have seriously vested interests in the area. Nor are they as interested in cultivating opium. 10 years ago they lost almost 20% of their population to aids as a result of heroin addiction. This, in combination with the development of schools, roads, and crops, has brought them into a much closer orbit with the local economy and society and a major disinterest in opium production.
Tarrin: “That doesn’t mean I like leader like Thida, however, Thida’s speech today really led me down, and I wish people will see her intention.” What do you think her intention is? Anyway, she must be more appealing to the unaligned (which the red shirts need to win over) than Jatuporn and Thaksin, right… or is that a false assumption?
To my mind, the best red leaders are the ones on the margins like Sombat and Somyot, but I can’t see them commanding large crowds of people. But then do they really have to do that? Perhaps there’s too much emphasis on leaders and speeches? Too much of the vertical and not enough of the horizontal.
Making simplistic claims that “economic development is good for the poor” really isn’t very useful. Some types of development may be good for the poor, some of the time, but if you really think that everything that is called “development” is “good for the poor” you must be really naive, as there is plenty of evidence that demonstrates that this simply isn’t true. When it comes to development, there are usually winners and losers. Things are almost always complex. I would recommend that you take a more realistic and nuanced position. Otherwise, you won’t come across as being informed or credible.
Thank for this wiki leak. It will be tragic for New Mandala readers here to laugh it off as another goofy situation that actually affect 55 mil Myanmar citizenry fate.
This shameful legacy of all western government now clearly in printed words:
1) Sanction applied in a useless and careless way without regards to the ordinary citizenry plight. (Document 4) highlighted that very repugnant, criminal action.
2) Knowing yet ignoring Than Shwe xenophobic paranoid nature that the Chinese has learned and chose to communicate, SUCCESSFULLY through guaranteed media, in BURMESE.
3) Knowing the policy being carried out is a total failure for decades yet espousing “Oh Well” attitude that is consistent with helping the junta to succeed by degrading the citizenry strength in education, health care and economic opportunities, the 3 essential elements in any country in which democracy society is expected.
No vacancies now for those with “a working knowledge of AP-British style” ZodiacGuille takes the prize. Fiji, Sri Lanka and Myanmar with nationalists all in the seat, what is the colonial world coming to? Poor job opportunities for ANU graduates, maybe something in the real world or writing equal opportunity narrative in Australia at least until the nanny state cops if after the next resource bust?
Again, why are you so particular with the left?? do you want the right to lead the red instead?
That doesn’t mean I like leader like Thida, however, Thida’s speech today really led me down, and I wish people will see her intention. The red really need to shake up their leaders roasters, if they even need one.
From the moment that Mubarak stepped down, I asked myself how long it would take for one of the truth-bending zealots to start comparing his fall with Thaksin’s. And in c14, the question is answered.
Sure – Egypt 2011 is just like Thailand 2006. Just ignore that Mubarak finally bowed to massive popular pressure and handed authority to the Egyptian military. BTW, that’s truly “massive” and truly “popular” as in millions nationwide from nearly all strata of Egyptian society (except the elite who have been doing very nicely, thanks) self motivating to protest and strike – as opposed to the pretend “massive popular”of usually a few thousand from largely one special interest group mobilised in Bangkok by Sondhi & Co, aided and abetted by the Thai military who stage an all-too-familiar coup.
I find the overall tone in these China-Lao articles so negative (politically negative?) and this article is a welcome exception. Looking at the bigger macro-economic picture one can say that the industrialisation of the Chinese west coast has lifted hundreds of million of Chinese out of poverty. Now it’s Sout-East China’s turn to become industrialized, and Lao P.D.R.’s north-east can play a part in this as a supplier of land. Instead of pointing at the Chinese wirtschafswunder and emphasizing the positive effects that the linking in of NE Lao into the SE-Chinese industrial infrastructure can have and already has, it seems like some western commentators have developed a fetish for the negative effects of China’s policy, to only mention the positive developmental effects it could have on the region as a byline. The world wants cheap tires and cars, Yunnan has the factories, Laos could help supply the rubber. Easy like that.
Very interesting article by the way, and great pictures. I particularly like that one with the vaccination posters over the land zoning map.
I’d like to know more about the artist who drew the sketch. His blog at http://martoart.multiply.com/journal looks fascinating, though I don’t grok very much of it since it’s in Bahasa Indonesia.
Thai Intel’s inside has an interesting comment saying how come lese majeste is everywhere in Thailand but the attention is drawn to Prachathai? the case is flimsy at best and the issue is that offending remarks were taken down too slow…Ok so what’s the big deal? A contact, a Level 8 official, at the Thai Labour Department’s “Research Unit” told Thai Intel the following:
QUOTE
“Prachathai is the only Thai media that is dedicated to labor rights…….It has a long track record of reporting on Thai labor issues……There is no other Thai media that is doing that at the concentration and level of Prachathai…….We find it to have a very strong socialist leaning………..Prachathai is also making contact with global labor organizations……….In one case, it has greatly damaged Thailand’s export to Europe and in other case, has greatly hurt the North American market for Thai goods……….My recommendation is for the government to discuss these matters with Prachathai so that these other issues can be bought to Prachathai attention…….But my boss said he had a better way of dealing with Prachathai……”
UNQUOTE http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/2011/02/12/thai-media-intelligence-the-truth-behind-the-prosecution-of-prachathai/
Les Abbey – your constant attacks on Dr. Jim Taylor are mostly just silly, and without substance. Instead of giving us a polemic, give some incontrovertible, proven FACTS.
(I concede you have a point re. Thaksin’s drug war victims and intimidation of the media )…
Just precisely for the points you make in the second paragraph Chris. It was almost Stalinist the way some expected us to forget that pre-2006 we were attacking Thaksin for his authoritarian rule. During 2007 the protest against the military coup was swallowed by the return Thaksin movement. Principles went out the window. Since then we have seen the gradual whitewashing of Thaksin’s past by the very same people so that now they can say either it never happened or that it wasn’t that bad anyway.
Now of course if someone wants to supply facts rather than propaganda I would be happy to argue on facts, but if all that is offered are untruths then I can only point them out.
Is Thaksin the Devil Incarnate? Well all I can say is he represents a bigger threat to the future of democracy in Thailand than any army commander, and if he returns to power it will be like getting rid of Marcos in removing him. CEO government? He is just a corrupt businessman who with corrupt politicians and civil servants helping with government contracts became an extremely rich man. Do you really think he is another Bill Gates or Steve Jobs?
I will continue this rant even further;-) Not only do I doubt his ability to do honest business, I also doubt his courage. When his canon fodder was about to be killed by the army, he was shopping in the brand-name shops of Paris CDG airport. At any time in 2009 or early 2010 he could have waited on the Cambodian border and asked his supporters to march with him from there to Bangkok. A true pro-democracy movement could have made as big a change in momentum as what has occurred in Cairo.
Nganadeeleg says the Red Shirts protests failed to dismantle Thailand’s ‘Wall of Fear’. (Which tempts me to ask: If those M79 grenade launchers, petrol-bottles and high powered assault rifles Red armory were intended to puncture holes in the said ‘wall’, those dumb Reds shooters should have been adequately told that ‘wall’ only exists, if it exists, in the mind.)
The ‘Wall of Fear’ certainly existed in Egypt, and the Philippines when their People Power toppled their tyrants. I do not doubt there is some kind of nearly oppressive ‘Wall’ that restricts/distorts freedom of speech and rule of law in Thailand. Remember I said ‘nearly oppressive’ gentlemen, and, perhaps for most Thais they are content to be ‘inconvenienced, to put it mildly, by such a ‘wall’ until perhaps the passing of the reign of the current deeply revered King Bhumibhol.
There must be something sinister or suspicious about the Thai people’s perception of the Red Shirt movement. The Thaksin taint and uninspiring bunch of Red leaders that represented the face of the Red Shirts certainly must have something to do with it. But there must be more . . . Red Shirts persona that do not endear nor inspire.
The People’s Power of Egypt and the Philippines were able to draw Nobel Laureates, doctors, lawyers and professors to participate with the young students and professionals, and common workers and ordinary citizens in the streets in unmistakable popular protests. Under such circumstances, no tanks or soldiers dare challenge the people’s will being expressed in their streets.
Couldn’t agree more with you on that one, the UDD (and many other group associate to it) should gear the movement more toward changing system, not changing head.
So why doesn’t the left leave the UDD controlled movement and go into the rural areas fighting on policies of more democracy, republicanism, and whatever else they believe in. It’s been done before and even if the outcome wasn’t successful it certainly recruited peasant farmers to their cause. Maybe Weng can say what changes need to be made this time.
The problem for those on the left who associate with the likes of UDD leadership is that the smell sticks. When a rich man tries to buy himself a putsch and a country and they support him, they just end up as followers of warlord. Maybe instead of reading about the Russian Revolution, reading about the various Mexican revolutions might supply more lessons to today’s Thailand.
Vichai: My take on why the people have failed to achieve victory in Thailand is similar to Ralph’s, although I would add that in Egypt the wall of fear was dismantled, but that process is still happening in Thailand.
“We broke down the wall of fear,” said Mohammed Gamal, a 21-year-old Cairo University student, one of a new generation of web-savvy young people behind the revolt. “We changed our people,” he added. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/hosni-mubarak-cedes-power-to-egyptian-military-strongmen/story-e6frg6so-1226004852592
(Though Egypt still has a long way to go – it’s military overthrew the monarchy 60 years ago and now the military strongman has been overthrown by the people, but it’s yet to be determined who will run the country from now on)
The internal frontier: Chinese extraterritoriality in northern Laos?
I’ve just returned from a visit to a Lahu village in northern Thailand. Ban Pong Hai is a valley away from the main Lahu millage Mai Ai and about 45 minutes outside of Fang (a 3 hour drive from Chiangmai). The development of rubber plantations there is driven by a Bangkok developer who married into the Lahu community. The people that I spoke to have a hard time developing their land as they would like for lack of capital. Lychee and orange plantations predominate but many of the locals would like to develop rubber. It was interesting to see the scale of the irrigation projects that accompanied these orchards. Many of them had been put into place in conjunction with the provincial university out of Chiangmai.
These Lahu are now tied quite firmly to the land and their villages will not be moving now that they have seriously vested interests in the area. Nor are they as interested in cultivating opium. 10 years ago they lost almost 20% of their population to aids as a result of heroin addiction. This, in combination with the development of schools, roads, and crops, has brought them into a much closer orbit with the local economy and society and a major disinterest in opium production.
Coup talk in Thailand
Tarrin: “That doesn’t mean I like leader like Thida, however, Thida’s speech today really led me down, and I wish people will see her intention.” What do you think her intention is? Anyway, she must be more appealing to the unaligned (which the red shirts need to win over) than Jatuporn and Thaksin, right… or is that a false assumption?
To my mind, the best red leaders are the ones on the margins like Sombat and Somyot, but I can’t see them commanding large crowds of people. But then do they really have to do that? Perhaps there’s too much emphasis on leaders and speeches? Too much of the vertical and not enough of the horizontal.
Land reform proposal a blast from the past
Dear Anand and Prawase: Who needs 50 rai? Two rai per family would be more reasonable, considering the needs of an average Thai family.
Khmer voodoo at the frontlines
Yep, going back to Stone Age!
The internal frontier: Chinese extraterritoriality in northern Laos?
Neptunian,
Making simplistic claims that “economic development is good for the poor” really isn’t very useful. Some types of development may be good for the poor, some of the time, but if you really think that everything that is called “development” is “good for the poor” you must be really naive, as there is plenty of evidence that demonstrates that this simply isn’t true. When it comes to development, there are usually winners and losers. Things are almost always complex. I would recommend that you take a more realistic and nuanced position. Otherwise, you won’t come across as being informed or credible.
On messages to Senior General Than Shwe
Nich
Thank for this wiki leak. It will be tragic for New Mandala readers here to laugh it off as another goofy situation that actually affect 55 mil Myanmar citizenry fate.
This shameful legacy of all western government now clearly in printed words:
1) Sanction applied in a useless and careless way without regards to the ordinary citizenry plight. (Document 4) highlighted that very repugnant, criminal action.
2) Knowing yet ignoring Than Shwe xenophobic paranoid nature that the Chinese has learned and chose to communicate, SUCCESSFULLY through guaranteed media, in BURMESE.
3) Knowing the policy being carried out is a total failure for decades yet espousing “Oh Well” attitude that is consistent with helping the junta to succeed by degrading the citizenry strength in education, health care and economic opportunities, the 3 essential elements in any country in which democracy society is expected.
Job at The Myanmar Times
No vacancies now for those with “a working knowledge of AP-British style” ZodiacGuille takes the prize. Fiji, Sri Lanka and Myanmar with nationalists all in the seat, what is the colonial world coming to? Poor job opportunities for ANU graduates, maybe something in the real world or writing equal opportunity narrative in Australia at least until the nanny state cops if after the next resource bust?
Chiranuch trial delay
Error message instead of Prachathai website on the screen:
Error 503 Service Unavailable
Guru Meditation:
XID: ……
Varnish cache server
The guys at MICT show some strange sense of humor.
Coup talk in Thailand
LesAbbey – 24
Again, why are you so particular with the left?? do you want the right to lead the red instead?
That doesn’t mean I like leader like Thida, however, Thida’s speech today really led me down, and I wish people will see her intention. The red really need to shake up their leaders roasters, if they even need one.
Land reform proposal a blast from the past
LesAbbey: Chris was talking about facts. rather than conjecture.
The internal frontier: Chinese extraterritoriality in northern Laos?
Sorry Paul #1, the days of the British Empire is over…. You can’t go to some Asian Land or African land, plant a flag and claim it for the Queen!
Welcome to the 21st century…… Economic development is good for the poor. Undeveloped assets are worth nothing – zero.
Coup talk in Thailand
From the moment that Mubarak stepped down, I asked myself how long it would take for one of the truth-bending zealots to start comparing his fall with Thaksin’s. And in c14, the question is answered.
Sure – Egypt 2011 is just like Thailand 2006. Just ignore that Mubarak finally bowed to massive popular pressure and handed authority to the Egyptian military. BTW, that’s truly “massive” and truly “popular” as in millions nationwide from nearly all strata of Egyptian society (except the elite who have been doing very nicely, thanks) self motivating to protest and strike – as opposed to the pretend “massive popular”of usually a few thousand from largely one special interest group mobilised in Bangkok by Sondhi & Co, aided and abetted by the Thai military who stage an all-too-familiar coup.
The internal frontier: Chinese extraterritoriality in northern Laos?
I find the overall tone in these China-Lao articles so negative (politically negative?) and this article is a welcome exception. Looking at the bigger macro-economic picture one can say that the industrialisation of the Chinese west coast has lifted hundreds of million of Chinese out of poverty. Now it’s Sout-East China’s turn to become industrialized, and Lao P.D.R.’s north-east can play a part in this as a supplier of land. Instead of pointing at the Chinese wirtschafswunder and emphasizing the positive effects that the linking in of NE Lao into the SE-Chinese industrial infrastructure can have and already has, it seems like some western commentators have developed a fetish for the negative effects of China’s policy, to only mention the positive developmental effects it could have on the region as a byline. The world wants cheap tires and cars, Yunnan has the factories, Laos could help supply the rubber. Easy like that.
Very interesting article by the way, and great pictures. I particularly like that one with the vaccination posters over the land zoning map.
Chiranuch trial delay
I’d like to know more about the artist who drew the sketch. His blog at http://martoart.multiply.com/journal looks fascinating, though I don’t grok very much of it since it’s in Bahasa Indonesia.
Chiranuch trial delay
Thai Intel’s inside has an interesting comment saying how come lese majeste is everywhere in Thailand but the attention is drawn to Prachathai? the case is flimsy at best and the issue is that offending remarks were taken down too slow…Ok so what’s the big deal? A contact, a Level 8 official, at the Thai Labour Department’s “Research Unit” told Thai Intel the following:
QUOTE
“Prachathai is the only Thai media that is dedicated to labor rights…….It has a long track record of reporting on Thai labor issues……There is no other Thai media that is doing that at the concentration and level of Prachathai…….We find it to have a very strong socialist leaning………..Prachathai is also making contact with global labor organizations……….In one case, it has greatly damaged Thailand’s export to Europe and in other case, has greatly hurt the North American market for Thai goods……….My recommendation is for the government to discuss these matters with Prachathai so that these other issues can be bought to Prachathai attention…….But my boss said he had a better way of dealing with Prachathai……”
UNQUOTE
http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/2011/02/12/thai-media-intelligence-the-truth-behind-the-prosecution-of-prachathai/
Land reform proposal a blast from the past
Chris Beale – 11
Les Abbey – your constant attacks on Dr. Jim Taylor are mostly just silly, and without substance. Instead of giving us a polemic, give some incontrovertible, proven FACTS.
(I concede you have a point re. Thaksin’s drug war victims and intimidation of the media )…
Just precisely for the points you make in the second paragraph Chris. It was almost Stalinist the way some expected us to forget that pre-2006 we were attacking Thaksin for his authoritarian rule. During 2007 the protest against the military coup was swallowed by the return Thaksin movement. Principles went out the window. Since then we have seen the gradual whitewashing of Thaksin’s past by the very same people so that now they can say either it never happened or that it wasn’t that bad anyway.
Now of course if someone wants to supply facts rather than propaganda I would be happy to argue on facts, but if all that is offered are untruths then I can only point them out.
Is Thaksin the Devil Incarnate? Well all I can say is he represents a bigger threat to the future of democracy in Thailand than any army commander, and if he returns to power it will be like getting rid of Marcos in removing him. CEO government? He is just a corrupt businessman who with corrupt politicians and civil servants helping with government contracts became an extremely rich man. Do you really think he is another Bill Gates or Steve Jobs?
I will continue this rant even further;-) Not only do I doubt his ability to do honest business, I also doubt his courage. When his canon fodder was about to be killed by the army, he was shopping in the brand-name shops of Paris CDG airport. At any time in 2009 or early 2010 he could have waited on the Cambodian border and asked his supporters to march with him from there to Bangkok. A true pro-democracy movement could have made as big a change in momentum as what has occurred in Cairo.
Coup talk in Thailand
Nganadeeleg says the Red Shirts protests failed to dismantle Thailand’s ‘Wall of Fear’. (Which tempts me to ask: If those M79 grenade launchers, petrol-bottles and high powered assault rifles Red armory were intended to puncture holes in the said ‘wall’, those dumb Reds shooters should have been adequately told that ‘wall’ only exists, if it exists, in the mind.)
The ‘Wall of Fear’ certainly existed in Egypt, and the Philippines when their People Power toppled their tyrants. I do not doubt there is some kind of nearly oppressive ‘Wall’ that restricts/distorts freedom of speech and rule of law in Thailand. Remember I said ‘nearly oppressive’ gentlemen, and, perhaps for most Thais they are content to be ‘inconvenienced, to put it mildly, by such a ‘wall’ until perhaps the passing of the reign of the current deeply revered King Bhumibhol.
There must be something sinister or suspicious about the Thai people’s perception of the Red Shirt movement. The Thaksin taint and uninspiring bunch of Red leaders that represented the face of the Red Shirts certainly must have something to do with it. But there must be more . . . Red Shirts persona that do not endear nor inspire.
The People’s Power of Egypt and the Philippines were able to draw Nobel Laureates, doctors, lawyers and professors to participate with the young students and professionals, and common workers and ordinary citizens in the streets in unmistakable popular protests. Under such circumstances, no tanks or soldiers dare challenge the people’s will being expressed in their streets.
Coup talk in Thailand
Tarrin – 21
Couldn’t agree more with you on that one, the UDD (and many other group associate to it) should gear the movement more toward changing system, not changing head.
So why doesn’t the left leave the UDD controlled movement and go into the rural areas fighting on policies of more democracy, republicanism, and whatever else they believe in. It’s been done before and even if the outcome wasn’t successful it certainly recruited peasant farmers to their cause. Maybe Weng can say what changes need to be made this time.
The problem for those on the left who associate with the likes of UDD leadership is that the smell sticks. When a rich man tries to buy himself a putsch and a country and they support him, they just end up as followers of warlord. Maybe instead of reading about the Russian Revolution, reading about the various Mexican revolutions might supply more lessons to today’s Thailand.
Coup talk in Thailand
Vichai: My take on why the people have failed to achieve victory in Thailand is similar to Ralph’s, although I would add that in Egypt the wall of fear was dismantled, but that process is still happening in Thailand.
“We broke down the wall of fear,” said Mohammed Gamal, a 21-year-old Cairo University student, one of a new generation of web-savvy young people behind the revolt. “We changed our people,” he added.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/hosni-mubarak-cedes-power-to-egyptian-military-strongmen/story-e6frg6so-1226004852592
(Though Egypt still has a long way to go – it’s military overthrew the monarchy 60 years ago and now the military strongman has been overthrown by the people, but it’s yet to be determined who will run the country from now on)
Coup talk in Thailand
Question is: Why was the Red street protests unsuccessful?
Serious question or not? Probably not from Vichai, for he has an answer provided.
Another answer is that they were unsuccessful because the repressive power of the state and military was used to crush the red shirts.