Where do you think the 2500 figure comes from? Who do you think tally killings around the country? All statistics come from the police; it’s their interpretation that’s at issue here. And the prevailing interpretation is stupid beyond belief.
The media often the HRW for the death toll, but who does the HRW cite? The media, of course. Here’s from an actual HRW report:
“”” In October 2003, Thailand’s foreign minister told the U.S. State Department that 2,593 homicide cases had occurred in the country since the previous February, more than double the normal level of about 400 homicides per month. “””
Quick, what’s 2,593 subtracted by 3 times 400?
The first sentence of that paragraph states that “In the first three-month phase of the crackdown that began on February 1, 2003, the Royal Thai Police reported that some 2,275 alleged drug criminals had been killed.14, ” but the police reported no such thing. If you track down the cited AFP report, you’ll find this gem:
“”” While police are unable to say how many of the killings are drug-related, the national murder tally has been widely used as a proxy figure for the number of deaths resulting from the no-holds-barred battle against traffickers. “””
It speaks volumes about the sorry state of Thailand-based journalism that is the most honest and sophisticated reporting you’re ever going to find on this subject — a reference to a “proxy” that assumes zero non-drug-related homicides. Of course, this commendable admission didn’t keep AFP from putting out a blatantly false headline.
This comment deserves to be a full article, and I am going to write one. (Don’t you dare scoop me, people!) I have no agenda here except to set the records straight. 1000 deaths are not going to make the police or Thaksin or the king look better than 2000, but it should shame the journalists, academics, and NGOs who propagate this falsehood year after year because they’re too lazy, incompetent, or unscrupulous to care about the truth. *Should*, but I doubt it will.
Yep again. Christine is correct. There is currently a MAJOR power struggle being waged between power-grabber Prem and legally rightful heir the CP. With PM General Prayut sitting in the very uncomfortable middle, desperately trying to broker a deal.
Excellent article and summary of what is transpiring in Thailand, as behind the scenes maneuvering is taking place.
The corrupt Thai military has long been the main cause of Thailand’s problems. These Thai generals don’t know how to fight wars, they are only there to line their pockets and protect the Sino Thai elites, and their own vested interests, as history has shown us time and time again.
The selfish, self centered, egoistical, Crown Prince is already 64, old and riddled with major health issues, and will not change, being set in his ruthless ways. It would be best and the right thing for Thailand, if he departed and spent the remaining days of his life in his recently purchased luxury villa outside of Munich. He’s now on his 4th wife and it is just a matter of time, before he loses interest and disposes of her and her family. That is unlikely to happen and what he has sown all these decades, he will eventually reap, as the old saying goes.
There was something either not-enough-stage managed, apparently, about the people “flocking” to glimpse the monarch…or the foreign reporting of the same, to displease the junta. Who ordered the lack of ostentation of the procession, and a horizontal mean of conveyance? The same person who modestly renounced an appointment as king by an inferior parliament or junta, the leader of which was seen prostrate at the CP’s feet in 2015? Contrast with the subdued crowd and modest, unmarked procession is the CP’s very private/public display of grief at the ceremonial bathing of the corpse, which signified in itself the transmission of lineage? And on whose orders was Suthida, the current wife, head of the CP’s household guard, in the front seat of the van carrying the body of the king? Has the CP said anything that anyone has actually heard, or is he communicating via writing, i.e., royal dictat or whatever they are called?
One way to manage power in a Buddhist society is to renounce it. http://www.khaosodenglish.com/politics/2016/10/16/govt-deplores-foreign-media-coverage-bbc-coverage-blocked/
One of the best “say it like it is” articles I’ve read from the author. She is right “on target” and I’m glad that she had the courage to shed light on what we all know, have known, for a long time. The “truth” cannot be hidden for long, esp. and more so, in this day and age.
At the same time, despite this being Thailand’s once in a lifetime opportunity to turn a new page for the royalists, Sino-thai elites, and military generals, I am afraid that they will not be willing to let go and will continue to keep up appearances and the status quo. They have benefitted enormously in every way, esp. economically, why would they stop the “gravy train.” The millions of hard working Thai people have been suppressed for too long, lied to, taken advantage of, robbed of their votes, and what not. It will take a people’s revolution, and a lot of innocent blood shed, before any “real changes” will transpire.
Look at what has transpired since General Prayuth and his gang took over? I have never seen or experienced anything like this in the past 5 decades. They are ruthless and will go to any lengths to hold on to power. The Thai people will have to rise up and take back power from the corrupt Thai military as Giles Ungpakorn stated in his latest article at “The Ugly Truth, Thailand.”
I’m saddened that Thailand’s day of reckoning is already here, and with this vengeful, ruthless, fearful crown prince waiting in the wings to take the throne, one can only begin to wonder what awaits Thailand in the coming weeks and months. He is already 64 years old and set in his ways, and has no desire to change and cannot change. An ancient Thai prophetic monk foretold many decades ago, the Chakri dynasty will end after the 9th King’s reign. Bhumibol has left behind a “mess” and his son will make things even worse. Despite the lese majeste law, it is just a matter of time before the Thai people realize what he truly is.
It would be best for him to not take the throne and depart Thailand and live his remaining days at his recently purchased luxury villa outside of Munich, esp. since he does not have to worry about money, after taking into consideration the 50 plus billion dollars this royal family has amassed via the CPB and its vast holdings in Thailand and worldwide.
Courtesy of Edward Snowdon, we know America’s government tracks ALL electronic communications, globally. For sure, they have absolute proof the Thai money trails. May they want to release some of that information, for their own purposes ? Or may there even be another Snowden ?
I hope the papers will touch on ” removing /lifting barriers” between:
1. Educated and Uneducated
2. Army/Ex Army and Civilians
3. Rich and Poor
4. Foreigners views and local views
5. Buddhist monks and other religious leaders
6. Research Papers and Real Actions
7. Advisors and action workers
8. Local investors and foreign investors
9. Myanmar and ethnic group
10 . Australia’s involvements and other ( Western & ASEAN) involvements
11. Young Leaders and Old Leaders
12. Existing Law /Order and Actual action taken
13 . Talk and Action
14 . Academic papers and Action taken
15. Western Administrative model and Myanmar Administrative Model.
16. Actions taken and Resulting outcomes
17. Aung San Suu Kyi and next leaders
18. Western Agricultural method and Asian Agricultural method
19. PhD training and Certificate training
20. Leaders ( bosses ) and followers ( workers)
Finally I would like to see someone with no formal academic background but with 100% field and work experience be invited to talk. So that we can see both sides of the coin. We have done this at Charles Sturt University with the local Australian farmers. For this political update conference , it will be interesting to bring some outstanding village chiefs with no academic background but have full of underclass scholar or knowledge.
I responded to another thread with this post, It seems (to me) appropriate to repeat a modified version here.
I find it interesting, People not born in Thailand, yet, very interested and with strong views. Re “The King”. Your article Mr Rhoden, is very good. MANY (more than some would believe) are aware of this.
I wish I could tell you (and properly quantify) how compelling it is, when, from birth, we are indoctrinated. I was fortunate, in that some of my schooling was overseas – I broke the indoctrination so to speak. But I see Thais crying and genuinely bereft of themselves. They are still indoctrinated.
We have an insidious education system, English is only touched upon. Most people, like it or not, know, English is the worlds “link language”. English is allowed, in fact demanded in academia, where it is essential. Science, engineering, medicine, just to name a few. Typically, those studying these subjects are among the comparatively wealthy. Many of their family(s) are in the elite club.
Breaking free of this oligarchy, will be generational, if indeed it can be done. Fear is a great tool to stifle debate – it is used extensively in Thailand AND I think it would have been worse, had it not been for foreign press AND some brave individuals.
Some of us see the wealth angle, largely as you do Mr Rhoden. Some think the succession is carefully crafted to allow the CPB to be sufficiently “milked” in the next year, to allow for abdication. It will certainly “play out behind gold-paneled doors” as you so eloquently state.
So much more I can say, but every word I write places my family and I in great danger.
Once again I reiterate, keep up your good work New Mandala and be thankful you are free to speak from your location.
The closing paragraph has an odd whiff of a neo-post-colonial white man’s burden to it. If Thai’s themselves can’t modernize and develop properly, then outside forces will need to save them from themselves by dragging them into modernity, realigning political evolution along its proper tracks, and ensuring the flourishing of a liberal democratic order.
Exactly which external actors or institutions does the author believe should, could or have the capacity of achieving this end? And can the author point to relevant examples in which such a project has succeeded in recent years/decades?
Yep – Christine is certainly correct : one of the most classic ways to money launder is by putting the loot in your spouses name ( male or female, despite Christine’s feminist emphasis), then into the names of children one has sired via that wife/ concubine, etc. Leads to interesting speculation : has a certain very high up simply developed a sophisticated off-shore siphoning network, by having so many off-Spring, through former lovers ?
Yes, I was also struck by the restrained character of the public expression at Sanam Luang. I can’t help wondering how much of that is due to the directives issued by the authorities about what was and wasn’t allowed. There was less persistent monitoring of behavior inside Sanam Luang – vs. by the street – but once the authorities said what was and wasn’t allowed, Thais themselves regulated the behavior of other Thais. Late arriving mourners who tried to use umbrellas, for instance, were told by folks nearby that they couldn’t open them. And everyone mostly complied. I suspect that the notion that one should sacrifice a bit of comfort and ease in a sign of respect to the late King made all this much easier. But without the directives, would the crowd have at least cried out “Long Live the King”? A question worth asking Thais who attended the event and witnessed the procession.
One might say that the “network monarchy,” including its associated oligarchs and even its key oligarch, have moved offshore. Check out the Caribbean branches of a few key banks. Or one in particular.
There are ahem people who discussed the CPB before your time, and even questioned its “phenomenal growth” and Sino-Thai oligarchic type-dimensions during the mid- late 20th century.
It’s good that you are studying human migration and, hopefully, the global flow of that gold. Narcotics is or was a good word to know, but dangerous to study. Narcotics money generally is rolled over into real estate. Not in Thailand, I am saying, but in other places.
I would also note that Forbes compiles its Thai richest lists without the cooperation of Thailand’s billionaires, the CPB being the model for misinformation/disinformation. In the past, ritual power tended to coincide with disguise and management of that wealth — until the former (not the present) head of the CPB, whose name could not even be uttered among enterprising businessmen, was discredited and then the CP became angered at one of his father’s oldest advisors, inserted into his inner circle. Briefly. Furthermore, the head of the CPB only agreed to be interviewed as a polite form of misdirection — when the sheer size of the holdings plus the devastation caused to the eocnomy and major banks by the economic crash made it impossible to ignore.
The present situation may require a whole new vocabulary. Much of Thai studies is or was near moribund because of the tremendous number of topics that were (and remain) taboo. Furthermore, little if any current mainstream, “serious” work takes gender dynamics into account — even when they are crying out for analysis, so to speak.
Until studies of Thai banks, multi-national corporations, oligarchs and the like take gender dynamics, marriage patterns, etc. into account, you/we are never going to figure out where that money is going, or even where it came from. That is one thing past kings knew for sure.
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The myth of King Bhumibol
Bangkok Pundit beat you to it: https://asiancorrespondent.com/2007/08/2275-where-did-this-number-come-from/
The myth of King Bhumibol
^
refreshing to hear from an obviously balanced Thai
The myth of King Bhumibol
He praised it afterwards.
The myth of King Bhumibol
Where do you think the 2500 figure comes from? Who do you think tally killings around the country? All statistics come from the police; it’s their interpretation that’s at issue here. And the prevailing interpretation is stupid beyond belief.
The media often the HRW for the death toll, but who does the HRW cite? The media, of course. Here’s from an actual HRW report:
https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/thailand0704/4.htm
“”” In October 2003, Thailand’s foreign minister told the U.S. State Department that 2,593 homicide cases had occurred in the country since the previous February, more than double the normal level of about 400 homicides per month. “””
Quick, what’s 2,593 subtracted by 3 times 400?
The first sentence of that paragraph states that “In the first three-month phase of the crackdown that began on February 1, 2003, the Royal Thai Police reported that some 2,275 alleged drug criminals had been killed.14, ” but the police reported no such thing. If you track down the cited AFP report, you’ll find this gem:
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Thai-drug-death-toll-hits-2-275-20030416
“”” While police are unable to say how many of the killings are drug-related, the national murder tally has been widely used as a proxy figure for the number of deaths resulting from the no-holds-barred battle against traffickers. “””
It speaks volumes about the sorry state of Thailand-based journalism that is the most honest and sophisticated reporting you’re ever going to find on this subject — a reference to a “proxy” that assumes zero non-drug-related homicides. Of course, this commendable admission didn’t keep AFP from putting out a blatantly false headline.
This comment deserves to be a full article, and I am going to write one. (Don’t you dare scoop me, people!) I have no agenda here except to set the records straight. 1000 deaths are not going to make the police or Thaksin or the king look better than 2000, but it should shame the journalists, academics, and NGOs who propagate this falsehood year after year because they’re too lazy, incompetent, or unscrupulous to care about the truth. *Should*, but I doubt it will.
Death of a monarch or an oligarch?
McCoy is the key. And the key is that he came from the CIA.
Death of a monarch or an oligarch?
Why would they want to log off one of their own legs? See Handley as well as McCoy’s book on SE Asia.
Private: Managing the death of King Bhumibol
Yep again. Christine is correct. There is currently a MAJOR power struggle being waged between power-grabber Prem and legally rightful heir the CP. With PM General Prayut sitting in the very uncomfortable middle, desperately trying to broker a deal.
Sorrow and an uncertain future
Excellent article and summary of what is transpiring in Thailand, as behind the scenes maneuvering is taking place.
The corrupt Thai military has long been the main cause of Thailand’s problems. These Thai generals don’t know how to fight wars, they are only there to line their pockets and protect the Sino Thai elites, and their own vested interests, as history has shown us time and time again.
The selfish, self centered, egoistical, Crown Prince is already 64, old and riddled with major health issues, and will not change, being set in his ruthless ways. It would be best and the right thing for Thailand, if he departed and spent the remaining days of his life in his recently purchased luxury villa outside of Munich. He’s now on his 4th wife and it is just a matter of time, before he loses interest and disposes of her and her family. That is unlikely to happen and what he has sown all these decades, he will eventually reap, as the old saying goes.
Private: Managing the death of King Bhumibol
There was something either not-enough-stage managed, apparently, about the people “flocking” to glimpse the monarch…or the foreign reporting of the same, to displease the junta. Who ordered the lack of ostentation of the procession, and a horizontal mean of conveyance? The same person who modestly renounced an appointment as king by an inferior parliament or junta, the leader of which was seen prostrate at the CP’s feet in 2015? Contrast with the subdued crowd and modest, unmarked procession is the CP’s very private/public display of grief at the ceremonial bathing of the corpse, which signified in itself the transmission of lineage? And on whose orders was Suthida, the current wife, head of the CP’s household guard, in the front seat of the van carrying the body of the king? Has the CP said anything that anyone has actually heard, or is he communicating via writing, i.e., royal dictat or whatever they are called?
One way to manage power in a Buddhist society is to renounce it.
http://www.khaosodenglish.com/politics/2016/10/16/govt-deplores-foreign-media-coverage-bbc-coverage-blocked/
Politics of the interregnum
One of the best “say it like it is” articles I’ve read from the author. She is right “on target” and I’m glad that she had the courage to shed light on what we all know, have known, for a long time. The “truth” cannot be hidden for long, esp. and more so, in this day and age.
At the same time, despite this being Thailand’s once in a lifetime opportunity to turn a new page for the royalists, Sino-thai elites, and military generals, I am afraid that they will not be willing to let go and will continue to keep up appearances and the status quo. They have benefitted enormously in every way, esp. economically, why would they stop the “gravy train.” The millions of hard working Thai people have been suppressed for too long, lied to, taken advantage of, robbed of their votes, and what not. It will take a people’s revolution, and a lot of innocent blood shed, before any “real changes” will transpire.
Look at what has transpired since General Prayuth and his gang took over? I have never seen or experienced anything like this in the past 5 decades. They are ruthless and will go to any lengths to hold on to power. The Thai people will have to rise up and take back power from the corrupt Thai military as Giles Ungpakorn stated in his latest article at “The Ugly Truth, Thailand.”
I’m saddened that Thailand’s day of reckoning is already here, and with this vengeful, ruthless, fearful crown prince waiting in the wings to take the throne, one can only begin to wonder what awaits Thailand in the coming weeks and months. He is already 64 years old and set in his ways, and has no desire to change and cannot change. An ancient Thai prophetic monk foretold many decades ago, the Chakri dynasty will end after the 9th King’s reign. Bhumibol has left behind a “mess” and his son will make things even worse. Despite the lese majeste law, it is just a matter of time before the Thai people realize what he truly is.
It would be best for him to not take the throne and depart Thailand and live his remaining days at his recently purchased luxury villa outside of Munich, esp. since he does not have to worry about money, after taking into consideration the 50 plus billion dollars this royal family has amassed via the CPB and its vast holdings in Thailand and worldwide.
Thailand’s top ten after Bhumibol
I’d swap Anupong for Suthep.
Private: Managing the death of King Bhumibol
Great work indeed.
Death of a monarch or an oligarch?
Courtesy of Edward Snowdon, we know America’s government tracks ALL electronic communications, globally. For sure, they have absolute proof the Thai money trails. May they want to release some of that information, for their own purposes ? Or may there even be another Snowden ?
Myanmar Update 2017 Call for Papers
I hope the papers will touch on ” removing /lifting barriers” between:
1. Educated and Uneducated
2. Army/Ex Army and Civilians
3. Rich and Poor
4. Foreigners views and local views
5. Buddhist monks and other religious leaders
6. Research Papers and Real Actions
7. Advisors and action workers
8. Local investors and foreign investors
9. Myanmar and ethnic group
10 . Australia’s involvements and other ( Western & ASEAN) involvements
11. Young Leaders and Old Leaders
12. Existing Law /Order and Actual action taken
13 . Talk and Action
14 . Academic papers and Action taken
15. Western Administrative model and Myanmar Administrative Model.
16. Actions taken and Resulting outcomes
17. Aung San Suu Kyi and next leaders
18. Western Agricultural method and Asian Agricultural method
19. PhD training and Certificate training
20. Leaders ( bosses ) and followers ( workers)
Finally I would like to see someone with no formal academic background but with 100% field and work experience be invited to talk. So that we can see both sides of the coin. We have done this at Charles Sturt University with the local Australian farmers. For this political update conference , it will be interesting to bring some outstanding village chiefs with no academic background but have full of underclass scholar or knowledge.
Thailand’s top ten after Bhumibol
I suppose it’s part of the military junta’s strategic move to perpetuate it’s rule through manipulating royalty scheming politics.
Death of a monarch or an oligarch?
I responded to another thread with this post, It seems (to me) appropriate to repeat a modified version here.
I find it interesting, People not born in Thailand, yet, very interested and with strong views. Re “The King”. Your article Mr Rhoden, is very good. MANY (more than some would believe) are aware of this.
I wish I could tell you (and properly quantify) how compelling it is, when, from birth, we are indoctrinated. I was fortunate, in that some of my schooling was overseas – I broke the indoctrination so to speak. But I see Thais crying and genuinely bereft of themselves. They are still indoctrinated.
We have an insidious education system, English is only touched upon. Most people, like it or not, know, English is the worlds “link language”. English is allowed, in fact demanded in academia, where it is essential. Science, engineering, medicine, just to name a few. Typically, those studying these subjects are among the comparatively wealthy. Many of their family(s) are in the elite club.
Breaking free of this oligarchy, will be generational, if indeed it can be done. Fear is a great tool to stifle debate – it is used extensively in Thailand AND I think it would have been worse, had it not been for foreign press AND some brave individuals.
Some of us see the wealth angle, largely as you do Mr Rhoden. Some think the succession is carefully crafted to allow the CPB to be sufficiently “milked” in the next year, to allow for abdication. It will certainly “play out behind gold-paneled doors” as you so eloquently state.
So much more I can say, but every word I write places my family and I in great danger.
Once again I reiterate, keep up your good work New Mandala and be thankful you are free to speak from your location.
The lost kingdom
The closing paragraph has an odd whiff of a neo-post-colonial white man’s burden to it. If Thai’s themselves can’t modernize and develop properly, then outside forces will need to save them from themselves by dragging them into modernity, realigning political evolution along its proper tracks, and ensuring the flourishing of a liberal democratic order.
Exactly which external actors or institutions does the author believe should, could or have the capacity of achieving this end? And can the author point to relevant examples in which such a project has succeeded in recent years/decades?
Death of a monarch or an oligarch?
Yep – Christine is certainly correct : one of the most classic ways to money launder is by putting the loot in your spouses name ( male or female, despite Christine’s feminist emphasis), then into the names of children one has sired via that wife/ concubine, etc. Leads to interesting speculation : has a certain very high up simply developed a sophisticated off-shore siphoning network, by having so many off-Spring, through former lovers ?
Private: Managing the death of King Bhumibol
Yes, I was also struck by the restrained character of the public expression at Sanam Luang. I can’t help wondering how much of that is due to the directives issued by the authorities about what was and wasn’t allowed. There was less persistent monitoring of behavior inside Sanam Luang – vs. by the street – but once the authorities said what was and wasn’t allowed, Thais themselves regulated the behavior of other Thais. Late arriving mourners who tried to use umbrellas, for instance, were told by folks nearby that they couldn’t open them. And everyone mostly complied. I suspect that the notion that one should sacrifice a bit of comfort and ease in a sign of respect to the late King made all this much easier. But without the directives, would the crowd have at least cried out “Long Live the King”? A question worth asking Thais who attended the event and witnessed the procession.
Death of a monarch or an oligarch?
One might say that the “network monarchy,” including its associated oligarchs and even its key oligarch, have moved offshore. Check out the Caribbean branches of a few key banks. Or one in particular.
There are ahem people who discussed the CPB before your time, and even questioned its “phenomenal growth” and Sino-Thai oligarchic type-dimensions during the mid- late 20th century.
It’s good that you are studying human migration and, hopefully, the global flow of that gold. Narcotics is or was a good word to know, but dangerous to study. Narcotics money generally is rolled over into real estate. Not in Thailand, I am saying, but in other places.
I would also note that Forbes compiles its Thai richest lists without the cooperation of Thailand’s billionaires, the CPB being the model for misinformation/disinformation. In the past, ritual power tended to coincide with disguise and management of that wealth — until the former (not the present) head of the CPB, whose name could not even be uttered among enterprising businessmen, was discredited and then the CP became angered at one of his father’s oldest advisors, inserted into his inner circle. Briefly. Furthermore, the head of the CPB only agreed to be interviewed as a polite form of misdirection — when the sheer size of the holdings plus the devastation caused to the eocnomy and major banks by the economic crash made it impossible to ignore.
The present situation may require a whole new vocabulary. Much of Thai studies is or was near moribund because of the tremendous number of topics that were (and remain) taboo. Furthermore, little if any current mainstream, “serious” work takes gender dynamics into account — even when they are crying out for analysis, so to speak.
Until studies of Thai banks, multi-national corporations, oligarchs and the like take gender dynamics, marriage patterns, etc. into account, you/we are never going to figure out where that money is going, or even where it came from. That is one thing past kings knew for sure.