[…] a labour rights activist and editor of the red-shirt-affiliated Voice of Taksin magazine, and threats and intimidation against academic Somsak Jeamteerasakul, an advocate for reform of Thailand’s lèse majesté […]
Could be wrong, and this will be over-simplyfying, but I’m not convinced the military’s position is as strong as it might appear.
They can sabre rattle about a coup, but will surely know that a coup could well be fiercely resisted by a very wide range of the Thai public in various parts of the country.
In such circumstances you have to ask, could they deal with it? Would their unity hold?
Sure they can put down demonstrators in the capital, but something much wider than that and they look likely to be in trouble. The day will come, if it hasn’t already, when sabre rattling is seen as just that. Everyone knows the military’s limitations and inabilities when it comes to external threats, it may well be found out on the “internal” front too.
I did tune in Andrew Spooner’s (#90) spin at Asian Correspondent (where Andrew prefers one way discussion and blocked off commentaries). Spooner’s main ‘thoughts’ in that article was that the radical violent M79 grenade launching and assault rifle firing Black Shirts did/do not belong to the Red Shirts.
Here’s only one excerpt from the HRW report ‘Descent into Chaos’ pertaining to the Black Shirts:
“ After [the shooting of Maj. Gen. Khattiya], the Black Shirts became extremely angry. They started breaking as many lights in the area as they could to make the area darker so snipers couldn’t fire at them. Suddenly, I heard a lot of explosions and gunfire for about 20 minutes, it was very heavy.
I tried to hide [from the gunfire] behind the Rama VI statue [in Lumphini Park]. The Black Shirts came into the tents located behind the Rama VI statue. There were five or six black garbage bags hidden behind the tents, and the Black Shirts took those garbage bags. I saw them open one of the garbage bags and it had three or four AK-47 assault rifles in it. They took them out and started shooting immediately towards the security forces at the Chulalongkorn Hospital and other buildings. They were extremely angry. The security forces started shooting back. There were many Black Shirts around, they started to move towards the barricades and in other directions…. I stayed around until midnight and there was gunfire until then. After Seh Daeng’s [Khattiya’s] shooting, the area around Rama VI statue became only for the Black Shirts, no more protesters.” – HRW interview with photojournalist Masaro Goto, (who was present when Khattiya was shot) Bangkok, June 11, 2010
Will Andrew Spooner now deny that Gen. Khattiya who commanded the Black Shirts did not belong to the Red Shirts? (Remember all the Red Shirts leaders were reporting to Thaksin S. and Gen. Khattiya had declared that he took orders only from Thaksin (w/c did not get any denials from Thaksin).
The Red Shirts leaders could not now deny that they did not welcome and tightly embraced the Black Shirts. The Black Shirts were freely moving amidst the Red Shirts during their rallies and during the very violent encounters with the soldiers. General Khattiya himself was publicly quoted that taking his orders only from Thaksin, his main mission was to provoke an urban ‘civil war’ during the April-May 2010 Red Shirts ‘peaceful’ protests.
And people we should pay particular attention to what the former Red Shirt Chairman Veera Musikapong has to say now about theRed Shirt movement in his most recent interview in Apr 25, 2011:
“ . . . The red shirts are split. There are those with a genuine belief in democracy and parliamentary rule. They don’t want violence or a military coup. They want justice and equity. But there’s also [a certain radical faction] … The group is against the monarchy and they have infiltrated the mainstream UDD movement. . .“
“. . . If he (UDD leader Jatuporn Prompan) doesn’t change his ways and allows himself to be carried away by the cheers of supporters who endorse violence, problems for the movement will result. There will certainly be problems if supporters are dictating to the leaders, instead of the other way around. I’m worried because any mass movement which fails to listen to its leaders without any sense of control, is doomed . . .”
Former UDD Chairman Veera Musikapong in the same breath expressed his concern about the UDD’s inability “ . . to keep away from the influence of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra and rid itself of its image as a group sowing hate . . .”
There you have it people from the former UDD Chairman Veera himself: The violent radical anarchic elements had ‘infiltrated the mainstream’ Red Shirt movement and the Red Shirt leaders themselves had allowed these violent radical anarchic elements to dictate to the Red Shirt leaders (like Jatuporn) and a Red Shirt ‘group sowing hate’ is the Red Shirt image that had emerged from the Black May 2010 Bangkok tragedy.
this is one of the funniest threads in a long time, a perfect reminder to all of us who sometimes forget about the limitless arrogance and sheer dull-wittedness of the educated Thai crew.
Natthawud, I bet you didn’t even realised Enricho was having a lend, did you… I bet you were thinking to yourself – at last, a farang who gets us!!
As Robin says, there just aint that much to get. ‘Thainess’ is not difficult, it is not a mystery. It is just another constructed identity marker, and the point that you seem perfectly unaware of is that it has been constructed as it is to reflect certain power interests – gee I wonder whose and I wonder where you come from in Thai society? The only other point of interest I have in ‘Thainess’ is to explore the socialisation process which seems to have left its indelible mark on you … but then, as an academic, artist, psychology expert (and rainmaker??), maybe I am underestimating you…
If you were trying to absolutely sabotage your own conference with your crass, tinny whining, I congratulate you.
Just wondering, why did you not get someone to help you with the English in the conference advertisement? No doubt ‘cos you think only a Thai could possibly do it justice… as it is, its thoroughly confusing and unclear…. aah, thanks for the smiles…
You are organizing a conference under the main theme “Thainess: Thailand at the Crossroads”.
We have a discussion which essentially goes to the heart of this theme between a Thai person and a German person resident in Thailand, and you say “we are not interested in this fruitless conversation” !!!
You then criticize Nick Nostitz for allegedly mocking Natt Prathanadi, but then employ a very mocking tone yourself! (Including your transparently “mocking” references to Nick’s work in the ’90s on Patpong.)
Why didn’t you – in similar fashion – take to task the comments of Khun Natt, which I thought were pretty mocking and patronizing all round – both to the “outsiders” who don’t understand Thailand and the large swathes of “Thai” people who are apparently too stupid to understand Thailand as well!
Confused as I am, I would like, if I may, to briefly comment on Khun Natt’s assertion:
“So, as intellectual and academic as you are , it is advised that it is best to understand us , not change us.”
With all due respect, it really isn’t that hard to understand you. It is also not that hard to understand that large numbers of the people born within the territories of the modern state of Thailand actually have a different worldview – or should I say “Thai view” – to you.
And there we are, back on topic in line with the conference theme. Job done!
A further point, Items 14-19, Provision of Research and Teaching Materials. Apart from one brief mention, the Lowy Institute’s Final Report on Thai studies in Australia fails to say anything meaningful about one of the most important research and teaching assets for Thai studies in Australia: the Thai-language materials held at the National Library of Australia and the Menzies Library at the ANU. The NLA collection has tens of thousands of volumes – monographs, serials, encyclopedias and other references works, newspapers, multimedia and web archive materials and a spectacular range of cremation volumes that is a special feature of the collection. It is truly one of the outstanding Thai-language collections in the world. Many of these materials are available on interlibrary loan to other Australian universities. The Lowy report does cite these collections in a list of strategies on the NTSC website in Item 22, but otherwise nothing is said about these invaluable research and teaching assets that have been built up over many decades. http://www.nla.gov.au/asian/lang/documents/Collectionhighlights_001.pdf
Sorry, but the only thing i am working on presently is the Red/Yellow conflict. That is the only worthwhile topic i have something to say about, the only topic that i am am interested in presently, and the only topic where i am up to date.
If you invite me to do an art exhibition on my images of sex, violence, and life on the fringes, i would accept (but then we would have to talk about budgets for prints, etc). But i am not able to do a paper on these topics, as i have never worked these topics with an academic angle (which i can’t, as i have no academic background), not even a journalistic angle (which was too superficial and limited for the topic as i saw it). And furthermore – my images would quite possibly get you into deep shit, as some of them are quite raw…
But submitting anything is rather pointless for me anyhow, as i have not the money for a trip to Australia, i haven’t even been able to afford a trip to Germany to visit my dad for the past two years (and then i was only able to because i got a free ticket). I even don’t travel by taxi here in Bangkok anymore to safe money, almost always use my motorcycle (nothing fancy, just a locally made GTO).
Why don’t you analyze the comment i was replying to? The reply was appropriate to the wide sweeping accusations voiced within (Thailand unique, advising me to first understand Thais, implying that therefore i lack proper understanding, accusing me of intending to “change” Thais, even that i would have the arrogance to see it as “my duty to lead” your society. Accusing fellow Thais who have voted for the party of their choice that they do “not know what was going on like we do but they were fooled”).
Which very much relates to the key question of the conference – Thainess – the differing views over what it means to be Thai now, also and especially represented within the different colors of the conflict.
And concluding – i am amazed how little interest this Red/Yellow conflict finds under the wider academic community – 5 years of deep and bitter conflict, and hardly any worthwhile paper on it published. Why is that so?
Oh dear. I was hoping to attend this conference but if it’s going to descend into the mire of political point scoring I might give it a miss. I recognise that we can’t look at Thailand and ignore the political situation. However isn’t the whole more than the sum of the parts – in other words isn’t there more to Thailand than politics? Personally the rampant egos, negativity, agression, even deaths involved with political agitation leave me cold. However I would have been keen to come and learn more about Thai culture and contemporary issues including, but not limited to, politics.
I am actually an academic, but I am so tired of conferences that become grandstands for the agendas of those with the loudest/most agressive standpoints instead of opportunities for mutual learning. The attitudes here are not encouraging to me.
I find myself having to agree with Enrico. Thailand and the Thailand population is in desperate need of being ruled by a yet another mentally-challenged general who has competed four years of “rigorous” study at one of the world’s most mediocre military academies, obtaining “C” grades or better in such courses as:
-“How to Plan and Execute Your Next Coup d’Etat”
-“Strategies for De-Stabilizing Elected Governments”
-“Using Intuition to Measure the Amount of Freedom Thai People are Capable of Dealing With”
-“Business Success Underneath the Radar: How to Organize and Run a Successful Illegal Business in Commercial Sex, Domestic & International Drug Transportation, Human Trafficking, Stolen Arms, and Smuggled Petroleum Products”
-“Optimizing the Thai Monarchy as a Symbol of Respectability in a Country of Total Corruption”
What’s the point in waiting? I really wish the Royal Thai Army could execute a coup d’etat now against the current government (for corruption and incompetence) and then postpone the upcoming election to the middle of next year. Remember that it takes time to write up another constitution. Plus, nobody (particularly the Red Shirts) will take to the streets to protest in favor of the ousted prime minister (Mark Vejjajiva) and the Democrat-led coalition government. General Prayuth, the country needs your guidance and direction!
You are a true Thai patriot and defender of the Higher Institution.
Despite the fact that the PAD encampment along Ratchadamnoen Nok Avenue has become a gathering point for homeless Yellow Shirts, paid vagrants and mediocre entertainers, we (conservative elites) must never forget that we are the adhesive that holds the nation together (along with the military) and the engine of its unevenly distributed prosperity. Our values, morals and ethics define our collective identity as a decent, law-abiding, polite, happy people who are loyal and obedient to our infallible Sovereigns. Look, Westerners do not possess the capacity to understand the uniqueness of the Land of Smiles because they are different and foreign. It is the same for a Thai person trying to comprehend the Cambodian mindset and figuring out why our poor, little brown brothers next door would fight our brave Thai soldiers over territory that is not really theirs at all. (I, for one, do not accept the 1962 ICJ decision. Do you?) We know from our CRES-approved rumours that Hun Sen is in Thaksin’s pocket and that it is Thaksin who is behind the border conflict. Terrorist! Traitor!
Moreover, I find your following quote to be quite enlightening:
“Like what lord Buddha says … It happened ..stays…and will end .” Yes, the Buddhist doctrine of impermanence is actualized everyday in modern Thai society, particularly in the go-go bars of Bangkok. Pattaya and Patong. Indeed, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Change is inevitable and nothing lasts forever. Systems and structures come and go, sometimes peacefully, sometimes violently. Having said that, we need to resist the Red Shirt mob with our plastic clappers and to prop up the splendor of the Chakri Dynasty for time immemorial, even if it means the regression of democracy (over-hyped to begin with). But I hope that you were not implying the impermanence of the monarchy. Am I correct?
“The key question of the conference as set out, what is modern Thainess?”
Isn’t that question also the essence of what is behind the Red/Yellow conflict – different views over where Thai society should go, and what is the position of the individual Thai in today’s changing society?
But i agree, we have to move way beyond political bickering.
Anyhow, thanks for your comments on my Patpong book. I have been working since 2000 on an expanded project of similar subject matter, also more creative than the way how i photograph the Red/Yellow conflict.
I hope that one day this will become a book as well.
I can’t help writing back to you after reading your reply to Khun Natt Prathanadi. As we (you and me) are artists, we love to look at details. My backgrounds are eclectic but linguistic is one of them so I really enjoy analyse the relationship between written language and personality. Fancy to see any examples….I’ll take some from your previous posts.
“Just go and educate yourself about other country’s history,…”
“But I believe i have a rather good grasp of understanding “you”, after 18 years here, with a Thai family.”
“and we westerners play a marginal role at most in this scenario.”
My way of thinking is none of these useless, mockery typos add to any new ideas or even strengthen your arguments. Personal traits theory said a lot about those who claim that they have a good grasp of such and such issues. Interesting, isn’t it?
I agree with you that the conference ma as well be place to educate people and I would like to invite you to submit an empirical paper to the conference. We also accept papers with various methods such as ethnography, phenomenographic etc.
Maybe your work on sex workers in Thailand may call a lot of attentions from the participants.
My intention to promote Thailand and Thainess in the conference is beyond a discussion of political ideology in Thailand in the electronic forum.
We need to pursue facts and methodologies that are
1) rigour
2) scientific
3) empirical
A number of scholars in Australia look at a number of interesting issues such as epilepsy cases among young Thai children, photosynthesis research, structural equation modeling of factors affecting CSRs from Thai companies etc. Those aspects also require attentions and need to be promoted among Australian scholars. The themes of this conference are eclectic and focused. The key question of the conference as set out, what is modern Thainess?, will be examined in various angles.
We must move beyond the only point that you have been repeating because we are not interested in the fruitless conversation.
By the way, I like your photos from your Patpong Book. Very interesting art.
Actually, no, i have not said that i should “lead your society”. I have said the opposite, in fact, and that i can only report what is going on, and that it is up to Thais to find solutions for your problems.
It is an absurd idea that you are right, and the Thais that voted the party you dislike automatically
“do not know what was going on like we do but they were fooled by some distorted truth and they happened to be the majority and of course they can outvote me anytime we call for such vote”,
and so democracy is not right for Thailand. Just because you say so, and the millions of Thais on both sides of the divide that still want to reach a democratic system must be therefore wrong and should have no say in your preferred system. Whatever system that may be.
I would actually be quite interested what sort of a system for Thailand you propose, that would work, and satisfy all Thais enough that we will not have a recurrence of bloodshed and military coups every few years. Unless you do prefer it that way.
Please, let me know about your ideas.
Thai people and the monarchy may very well have a strong bond, and in 1992 one sitting may have finished the conflict then (which was not just military against civilians, but included much conflict of different military factions as well). But i have not seen such a sitting in 2006, or in 2008, or in 2009, or in 2010 taking place. And i have not seen any solution so far. Any ideas how your past may help you now?
As to the so called “uniqueness” of Thailand, pleeeaase…
Just go and educate yourself about other country’s history, especially concerning their monarchies, in Europe for example, and you may find that there are more parallel’s to Thailand than differences. And rather ironic – at certain times of social crisis, also our countries have resorted to their own “uniqueness” when convenient – a very human notion of helplessness. And we have had also a long history of slaughtering opponents until we realized that a pluralistic society may be the best way to go for.
Sorry, i have no intention to “change you” – this is anyhow way beyond my powers. But I believe i have a rather good grasp of understanding “you”, after 18 years here, with a Thai family.
Maybe the bigger problem here is that Thais have difficulties to understand themselves, on occasion? In the end – it is Thai society that has a huge 5 year ongoing social conflict, and we westerners play a marginal role at most in this scenario. No massive American military support this time, no western colonial powers to be blamed now, i fear. Just Thai society, its home made problems, and hopefully one day a solution – but such a solution needs more flexibility than you display here.
I wonder what will happen if the Prua Thai Party win a land slide victory? Will the judges repeat themselves by taking order and dissolve the Prua Thai Party again? Will the Royal Thai army stage another coup to topple the Prua Thai government again? Will the yellow shirt under the Democrat Party come out and stage a rally like they used to do or even seize the airports or the government building again? No doubt, all these chaos can happen again under these group of army generals.
I think I must agree that what we commented about my society so far has nothing to do with the content of the conference so this will be my last reply . : )
Sigh….. You said you were in media so it is your duty to lead our society ? This reminded me of how Western countries’s politic policy once propagandaed every nation that democracy is the best form of politics so everyone should be like us . I was a bit sorry that most of Thais do not know what was going on like we do but they were fooled by some distorted truth and they happened to be the majority and of course they can outvote me anytime we call for such vote. This is how Mr Thaksin’s supporters justify his rightfulness ( in the throne?? )
If you were in media good and long enough , perhaps you could recall the domino theory when communism spreaded over the South East Asia . Everyone thought Thailand eventually be reformed but it was wrong . Decades later when there was an extreme conflict between civilians and military and the conflict ended in one sitting ! Yes they really sat on the floor before our king ! There are even more and more proofs that the monarchy and Thai people have strong bonds over centuries but that ‘s not my point and I guess I have come too far to convince you that Thailand is unique and has our own system .
So, as intellectual and academic as you are , it is advised that it is best to understand us , not change us .
I am not ONLY interested in pursuing conversation in Thai politics….
There are so many stories from the Thai perspectives from other sciences that also need attention from potential scholars who are interested in Thailand.
I am so pleased somebody stand up and say something with real ideas and IDENTITY! Very brave and thumbs up from me.
I am not interested in pursuing any conversation on Thai politics because this conference is not a Thai politics conference.
IS IT CLEAR?
Thai Studies is much broader than Thai politics and yet we need to pursue ideas on issues such as health, agriculture, architecture, education, biology, business and management from the Thai context.
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Somsak: “what I’m facing is scary”
[…] a labour rights activist and editor of the red-shirt-affiliated Voice of Taksin magazine, and threats and intimidation against academic Somsak Jeamteerasakul, an advocate for reform of Thailand’s lèse majesté […]
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
Could be wrong, and this will be over-simplyfying, but I’m not convinced the military’s position is as strong as it might appear.
They can sabre rattle about a coup, but will surely know that a coup could well be fiercely resisted by a very wide range of the Thai public in various parts of the country.
In such circumstances you have to ask, could they deal with it? Would their unity hold?
Sure they can put down demonstrators in the capital, but something much wider than that and they look likely to be in trouble. The day will come, if it hasn’t already, when sabre rattling is seen as just that. Everyone knows the military’s limitations and inabilities when it comes to external threats, it may well be found out on the “internal” front too.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
I did tune in Andrew Spooner’s (#90) spin at Asian Correspondent (where Andrew prefers one way discussion and blocked off commentaries). Spooner’s main ‘thoughts’ in that article was that the radical violent M79 grenade launching and assault rifle firing Black Shirts did/do not belong to the Red Shirts.
Here’s only one excerpt from the HRW report ‘Descent into Chaos’ pertaining to the Black Shirts:
“ After [the shooting of Maj. Gen. Khattiya], the Black Shirts became extremely angry. They started breaking as many lights in the area as they could to make the area darker so snipers couldn’t fire at them. Suddenly, I heard a lot of explosions and gunfire for about 20 minutes, it was very heavy.
I tried to hide [from the gunfire] behind the Rama VI statue [in Lumphini Park]. The Black Shirts came into the tents located behind the Rama VI statue. There were five or six black garbage bags hidden behind the tents, and the Black Shirts took those garbage bags. I saw them open one of the garbage bags and it had three or four AK-47 assault rifles in it. They took them out and started shooting immediately towards the security forces at the Chulalongkorn Hospital and other buildings. They were extremely angry. The security forces started shooting back. There were many Black Shirts around, they started to move towards the barricades and in other directions…. I stayed around until midnight and there was gunfire until then. After Seh Daeng’s [Khattiya’s] shooting, the area around Rama VI statue became only for the Black Shirts, no more protesters.” – HRW interview with photojournalist Masaro Goto, (who was present when Khattiya was shot) Bangkok, June 11, 2010
Will Andrew Spooner now deny that Gen. Khattiya who commanded the Black Shirts did not belong to the Red Shirts? (Remember all the Red Shirts leaders were reporting to Thaksin S. and Gen. Khattiya had declared that he took orders only from Thaksin (w/c did not get any denials from Thaksin).
The Red Shirts leaders could not now deny that they did not welcome and tightly embraced the Black Shirts. The Black Shirts were freely moving amidst the Red Shirts during their rallies and during the very violent encounters with the soldiers. General Khattiya himself was publicly quoted that taking his orders only from Thaksin, his main mission was to provoke an urban ‘civil war’ during the April-May 2010 Red Shirts ‘peaceful’ protests.
And people we should pay particular attention to what the former Red Shirt Chairman Veera Musikapong has to say now about theRed Shirt movement in his most recent interview in Apr 25, 2011:
“ . . . The red shirts are split. There are those with a genuine belief in democracy and parliamentary rule. They don’t want violence or a military coup. They want justice and equity. But there’s also [a certain radical faction] … The group is against the monarchy and they have infiltrated the mainstream UDD movement. . .“
“. . . If he (UDD leader Jatuporn Prompan) doesn’t change his ways and allows himself to be carried away by the cheers of supporters who endorse violence, problems for the movement will result. There will certainly be problems if supporters are dictating to the leaders, instead of the other way around. I’m worried because any mass movement which fails to listen to its leaders without any sense of control, is doomed . . .”
Former UDD Chairman Veera Musikapong in the same breath expressed his concern about the UDD’s inability “ . . to keep away from the influence of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra and rid itself of its image as a group sowing hate . . .”
There you have it people from the former UDD Chairman Veera himself: The violent radical anarchic elements had ‘infiltrated the mainstream’ Red Shirt movement and the Red Shirt leaders themselves had allowed these violent radical anarchic elements to dictate to the Red Shirt leaders (like Jatuporn) and a Red Shirt ‘group sowing hate’ is the Red Shirt image that had emerged from the Black May 2010 Bangkok tragedy.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
this is one of the funniest threads in a long time, a perfect reminder to all of us who sometimes forget about the limitless arrogance and sheer dull-wittedness of the educated Thai crew.
Natthawud, I bet you didn’t even realised Enricho was having a lend, did you… I bet you were thinking to yourself – at last, a farang who gets us!!
As Robin says, there just aint that much to get. ‘Thainess’ is not difficult, it is not a mystery. It is just another constructed identity marker, and the point that you seem perfectly unaware of is that it has been constructed as it is to reflect certain power interests – gee I wonder whose and I wonder where you come from in Thai society? The only other point of interest I have in ‘Thainess’ is to explore the socialisation process which seems to have left its indelible mark on you … but then, as an academic, artist, psychology expert (and rainmaker??), maybe I am underestimating you…
If you were trying to absolutely sabotage your own conference with your crass, tinny whining, I congratulate you.
Just wondering, why did you not get someone to help you with the English in the conference advertisement? No doubt ‘cos you think only a Thai could possibly do it justice… as it is, its thoroughly confusing and unclear…. aah, thanks for the smiles…
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Nick Nostitz,
I am moving on to the conversation on the dimensions of Thai conference so thank you.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
nattavud pimpa
Must admit you have left me thoroughly confused…
You are organizing a conference under the main theme “Thainess: Thailand at the Crossroads”.
We have a discussion which essentially goes to the heart of this theme between a Thai person and a German person resident in Thailand, and you say “we are not interested in this fruitless conversation” !!!
You then criticize Nick Nostitz for allegedly mocking Natt Prathanadi, but then employ a very mocking tone yourself! (Including your transparently “mocking” references to Nick’s work in the ’90s on Patpong.)
Why didn’t you – in similar fashion – take to task the comments of Khun Natt, which I thought were pretty mocking and patronizing all round – both to the “outsiders” who don’t understand Thailand and the large swathes of “Thai” people who are apparently too stupid to understand Thailand as well!
Confused as I am, I would like, if I may, to briefly comment on Khun Natt’s assertion:
“So, as intellectual and academic as you are , it is advised that it is best to understand us , not change us.”
With all due respect, it really isn’t that hard to understand you. It is also not that hard to understand that large numbers of the people born within the territories of the modern state of Thailand actually have a different worldview – or should I say “Thai view” – to you.
And there we are, back on topic in line with the conference theme. Job done!
Thai studies in Australia
A further point, Items 14-19, Provision of Research and Teaching Materials. Apart from one brief mention, the Lowy Institute’s Final Report on Thai studies in Australia fails to say anything meaningful about one of the most important research and teaching assets for Thai studies in Australia: the Thai-language materials held at the National Library of Australia and the Menzies Library at the ANU. The NLA collection has tens of thousands of volumes – monographs, serials, encyclopedias and other references works, newspapers, multimedia and web archive materials and a spectacular range of cremation volumes that is a special feature of the collection. It is truly one of the outstanding Thai-language collections in the world. Many of these materials are available on interlibrary loan to other Australian universities. The Lowy report does cite these collections in a list of strategies on the NTSC website in Item 22, but otherwise nothing is said about these invaluable research and teaching assets that have been built up over many decades. http://www.nla.gov.au/asian/lang/documents/Collectionhighlights_001.pdf
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
“nattavud pimpa”:
Sorry, but the only thing i am working on presently is the Red/Yellow conflict. That is the only worthwhile topic i have something to say about, the only topic that i am am interested in presently, and the only topic where i am up to date.
If you invite me to do an art exhibition on my images of sex, violence, and life on the fringes, i would accept (but then we would have to talk about budgets for prints, etc). But i am not able to do a paper on these topics, as i have never worked these topics with an academic angle (which i can’t, as i have no academic background), not even a journalistic angle (which was too superficial and limited for the topic as i saw it). And furthermore – my images would quite possibly get you into deep shit, as some of them are quite raw…
But submitting anything is rather pointless for me anyhow, as i have not the money for a trip to Australia, i haven’t even been able to afford a trip to Germany to visit my dad for the past two years (and then i was only able to because i got a free ticket). I even don’t travel by taxi here in Bangkok anymore to safe money, almost always use my motorcycle (nothing fancy, just a locally made GTO).
Why don’t you analyze the comment i was replying to? The reply was appropriate to the wide sweeping accusations voiced within (Thailand unique, advising me to first understand Thais, implying that therefore i lack proper understanding, accusing me of intending to “change” Thais, even that i would have the arrogance to see it as “my duty to lead” your society. Accusing fellow Thais who have voted for the party of their choice that they do “not know what was going on like we do but they were fooled”).
Which very much relates to the key question of the conference – Thainess – the differing views over what it means to be Thai now, also and especially represented within the different colors of the conflict.
And concluding – i am amazed how little interest this Red/Yellow conflict finds under the wider academic community – 5 years of deep and bitter conflict, and hardly any worthwhile paper on it published. Why is that so?
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Oh dear. I was hoping to attend this conference but if it’s going to descend into the mire of political point scoring I might give it a miss. I recognise that we can’t look at Thailand and ignore the political situation. However isn’t the whole more than the sum of the parts – in other words isn’t there more to Thailand than politics? Personally the rampant egos, negativity, agression, even deaths involved with political agitation leave me cold. However I would have been keen to come and learn more about Thai culture and contemporary issues including, but not limited to, politics.
I am actually an academic, but I am so tired of conferences that become grandstands for the agendas of those with the loudest/most agressive standpoints instead of opportunities for mutual learning. The attitudes here are not encouraging to me.
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
I find myself having to agree with Enrico. Thailand and the Thailand population is in desperate need of being ruled by a yet another mentally-challenged general who has competed four years of “rigorous” study at one of the world’s most mediocre military academies, obtaining “C” grades or better in such courses as:
-“How to Plan and Execute Your Next Coup d’Etat”
-“Strategies for De-Stabilizing Elected Governments”
-“Using Intuition to Measure the Amount of Freedom Thai People are Capable of Dealing With”
-“Business Success Underneath the Radar: How to Organize and Run a Successful Illegal Business in Commercial Sex, Domestic & International Drug Transportation, Human Trafficking, Stolen Arms, and Smuggled Petroleum Products”
-“Optimizing the Thai Monarchy as a Symbol of Respectability in a Country of Total Corruption”
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
What’s the point in waiting? I really wish the Royal Thai Army could execute a coup d’etat now against the current government (for corruption and incompetence) and then postpone the upcoming election to the middle of next year. Remember that it takes time to write up another constitution. Plus, nobody (particularly the Red Shirts) will take to the streets to protest in favor of the ousted prime minister (Mark Vejjajiva) and the Democrat-led coalition government. General Prayuth, the country needs your guidance and direction!
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Bravo Khun Natt Prathanadi!
You are a true Thai patriot and defender of the Higher Institution.
Despite the fact that the PAD encampment along Ratchadamnoen Nok Avenue has become a gathering point for homeless Yellow Shirts, paid vagrants and mediocre entertainers, we (conservative elites) must never forget that we are the adhesive that holds the nation together (along with the military) and the engine of its unevenly distributed prosperity. Our values, morals and ethics define our collective identity as a decent, law-abiding, polite, happy people who are loyal and obedient to our infallible Sovereigns. Look, Westerners do not possess the capacity to understand the uniqueness of the Land of Smiles because they are different and foreign. It is the same for a Thai person trying to comprehend the Cambodian mindset and figuring out why our poor, little brown brothers next door would fight our brave Thai soldiers over territory that is not really theirs at all. (I, for one, do not accept the 1962 ICJ decision. Do you?) We know from our CRES-approved rumours that Hun Sen is in Thaksin’s pocket and that it is Thaksin who is behind the border conflict. Terrorist! Traitor!
Moreover, I find your following quote to be quite enlightening:
“Like what lord Buddha says … It happened ..stays…and will end .” Yes, the Buddhist doctrine of impermanence is actualized everyday in modern Thai society, particularly in the go-go bars of Bangkok. Pattaya and Patong. Indeed, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Change is inevitable and nothing lasts forever. Systems and structures come and go, sometimes peacefully, sometimes violently. Having said that, we need to resist the Red Shirt mob with our plastic clappers and to prop up the splendor of the Chakri Dynasty for time immemorial, even if it means the regression of democracy (over-hyped to begin with). But I hope that you were not implying the impermanence of the monarchy. Am I correct?
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
“nattavud pimpa”:
“The key question of the conference as set out, what is modern Thainess?”
Isn’t that question also the essence of what is behind the Red/Yellow conflict – different views over where Thai society should go, and what is the position of the individual Thai in today’s changing society?
But i agree, we have to move way beyond political bickering.
Anyhow, thanks for your comments on my Patpong book. I have been working since 2000 on an expanded project of similar subject matter, also more creative than the way how i photograph the Red/Yellow conflict.
I hope that one day this will become a book as well.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
To Nick Nostitz again,
I can’t help writing back to you after reading your reply to Khun Natt Prathanadi. As we (you and me) are artists, we love to look at details. My backgrounds are eclectic but linguistic is one of them so I really enjoy analyse the relationship between written language and personality. Fancy to see any examples….I’ll take some from your previous posts.
“Just go and educate yourself about other country’s history,…”
“But I believe i have a rather good grasp of understanding “you”, after 18 years here, with a Thai family.”
“and we westerners play a marginal role at most in this scenario.”
My way of thinking is none of these useless, mockery typos add to any new ideas or even strengthen your arguments. Personal traits theory said a lot about those who claim that they have a good grasp of such and such issues. Interesting, isn’t it?
I agree with you that the conference ma as well be place to educate people and I would like to invite you to submit an empirical paper to the conference. We also accept papers with various methods such as ethnography, phenomenographic etc.
Maybe your work on sex workers in Thailand may call a lot of attentions from the participants.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
To Nick Nostitz,
My intention to promote Thailand and Thainess in the conference is beyond a discussion of political ideology in Thailand in the electronic forum.
We need to pursue facts and methodologies that are
1) rigour
2) scientific
3) empirical
A number of scholars in Australia look at a number of interesting issues such as epilepsy cases among young Thai children, photosynthesis research, structural equation modeling of factors affecting CSRs from Thai companies etc. Those aspects also require attentions and need to be promoted among Australian scholars. The themes of this conference are eclectic and focused. The key question of the conference as set out, what is modern Thainess?, will be examined in various angles.
We must move beyond the only point that you have been repeating because we are not interested in the fruitless conversation.
By the way, I like your photos from your Patpong Book. Very interesting art.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
“Natt Prathanadi”:
Actually, no, i have not said that i should “lead your society”. I have said the opposite, in fact, and that i can only report what is going on, and that it is up to Thais to find solutions for your problems.
It is an absurd idea that you are right, and the Thais that voted the party you dislike automatically
“do not know what was going on like we do but they were fooled by some distorted truth and they happened to be the majority and of course they can outvote me anytime we call for such vote”,
and so democracy is not right for Thailand. Just because you say so, and the millions of Thais on both sides of the divide that still want to reach a democratic system must be therefore wrong and should have no say in your preferred system. Whatever system that may be.
I would actually be quite interested what sort of a system for Thailand you propose, that would work, and satisfy all Thais enough that we will not have a recurrence of bloodshed and military coups every few years. Unless you do prefer it that way.
Please, let me know about your ideas.
Thai people and the monarchy may very well have a strong bond, and in 1992 one sitting may have finished the conflict then (which was not just military against civilians, but included much conflict of different military factions as well). But i have not seen such a sitting in 2006, or in 2008, or in 2009, or in 2010 taking place. And i have not seen any solution so far. Any ideas how your past may help you now?
As to the so called “uniqueness” of Thailand, pleeeaase…
Just go and educate yourself about other country’s history, especially concerning their monarchies, in Europe for example, and you may find that there are more parallel’s to Thailand than differences. And rather ironic – at certain times of social crisis, also our countries have resorted to their own “uniqueness” when convenient – a very human notion of helplessness. And we have had also a long history of slaughtering opponents until we realized that a pluralistic society may be the best way to go for.
Sorry, i have no intention to “change you” – this is anyhow way beyond my powers. But I believe i have a rather good grasp of understanding “you”, after 18 years here, with a Thai family.
Maybe the bigger problem here is that Thais have difficulties to understand themselves, on occasion? In the end – it is Thai society that has a huge 5 year ongoing social conflict, and we westerners play a marginal role at most in this scenario. No massive American military support this time, no western colonial powers to be blamed now, i fear. Just Thai society, its home made problems, and hopefully one day a solution – but such a solution needs more flexibility than you display here.
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
I wonder what will happen if the Prua Thai Party win a land slide victory? Will the judges repeat themselves by taking order and dissolve the Prua Thai Party again? Will the Royal Thai army stage another coup to topple the Prua Thai government again? Will the yellow shirt under the Democrat Party come out and stage a rally like they used to do or even seize the airports or the government building again? No doubt, all these chaos can happen again under these group of army generals.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Dear Mr Nostitz
I think I must agree that what we commented about my society so far has nothing to do with the content of the conference so this will be my last reply . : )
Sigh….. You said you were in media so it is your duty to lead our society ? This reminded me of how Western countries’s politic policy once propagandaed every nation that democracy is the best form of politics so everyone should be like us . I was a bit sorry that most of Thais do not know what was going on like we do but they were fooled by some distorted truth and they happened to be the majority and of course they can outvote me anytime we call for such vote. This is how Mr Thaksin’s supporters justify his rightfulness ( in the throne?? )
If you were in media good and long enough , perhaps you could recall the domino theory when communism spreaded over the South East Asia . Everyone thought Thailand eventually be reformed but it was wrong . Decades later when there was an extreme conflict between civilians and military and the conflict ended in one sitting ! Yes they really sat on the floor before our king ! There are even more and more proofs that the monarchy and Thai people have strong bonds over centuries but that ‘s not my point and I guess I have come too far to convince you that Thailand is unique and has our own system .
So, as intellectual and academic as you are , it is advised that it is best to understand us , not change us .
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
I have to rewrite in my previous post that
I am not ONLY interested in pursuing conversation in Thai politics….
There are so many stories from the Thai perspectives from other sciences that also need attention from potential scholars who are interested in Thailand.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Dear Everyone,
I am so pleased somebody stand up and say something with real ideas and IDENTITY! Very brave and thumbs up from me.
I am not interested in pursuing any conversation on Thai politics because this conference is not a Thai politics conference.
IS IT CLEAR?
Thai Studies is much broader than Thai politics and yet we need to pursue ideas on issues such as health, agriculture, architecture, education, biology, business and management from the Thai context.