I’ve your post over and over and I dont even know where to start, but here’s what you said in post 20.
If the Siamese had de facto accepted the border, even in its “details” on the map (that was unilaterally established, there is even no copy of it in the Thai government libraries), then why did the then Thailand reoccupy a large part of what was Cambodia in 1940 ?
To me it shows that the “demarcation” was NOT accepted !
The thing is, when the ICJ made their decision in 1962, the main evidence that the cambodian use against us is a picture taken in 1930 of Prince Damrong standing at the summit of the temple with a French flag waving which is the sign that he actually standing on the French (Cambodian) soil. In addition, Thailand made to contest to any of the agreement regarding the border for over 50 years. During the 2nd WW we invade France because we are part of the Axis, not because we didn’t agree with demarcation !.
When the UDD was protesting infront of Prem’s house (they weren’t wearing Red then) there were not as many diverse group of people in the UDD then comparing to what they are now. CM51 group was radical but if you follow the red a bit seriously, not trough the mainstream media anyway, you should’ve know that CM51 is pretty much dissolved and there are many more group formed afterward. This was because CM51 was too radical so many people just left the group. If you want to meet a gay red shirt I will gladly introduce you to some, the one that I know are very well off and actually are part of BKK elite societyl
[…] to support social issues. That passion has been documented in the very respected NewMandala blog at http://www.newmandala.org/2011/06/16/new-mandala-turns-five. Members of CASE are very lucky in the sense that Australian based organisations don’t have […]
Thanks, Doug, for a frank response. My earlier comment was intended constructively and I repeat that I found the comparison of South vs “Deep South” very useful – and very necessary.
It does seem to suit the Dem agenda to blur the distinction – claiming that the three provinces are politically “theirs” just as much as the ones to the north are; and also to suit a general Dem/Thai mindset that tries to avoid seeing the three provinces as in any way a “separate” entity.
As per c5, I don’t see those three provinces as being pro-Dem. Why would they be? It’s not as if the Dems have actually done anything progressive or even anything much that’s helpful for them. Abhisit ridiculed the proposal to expand industry there. The Oxford economics graduate seems blinded to the benefits that increased employment would bring. Cliche as it is, it’s worth remembering: “The devil makes work for idle hands to do”. Northern Ireland before and Gaza now – are there really not enough examples to teach this lesson?
Gay pride parades are not a red shirt issue, red shirts are no more homophobic than the general population and there are many, many gay red shirts.
And yet James Alex where were these gay red shirts when the homophobic attacks outside Prem’s house were going on a couple of years back? Were they still in the closet?
You said: “Coming to South-East Asia with gunboats to forge an Empire is deemed “legal” but re-occupying some of the ground “ceded” is “illegal” ?”
-Angelo, I think you did not read what I wrote above carefully or you misunderstood what I wrote. What I said above was ‘invasion’ is probably not unlawful 200 years ago (during the period of colonisation), but in 1940, it was unlawful.
It was never the point of discussion of whether what the Western nations have done during the period of colonisation were lawful or not. During the period of colonisation, there was no ICJ. So whether what the French had done during colonisation period is unlawful or not will always remain a moot point because there was no venue to decide on this at that time anyway.
ICJ had been established in 1940s, and at this time invasion into other state’s territory was deemed to be unlawful. My point, thus, is if Thailand actually invaded into Cambodia around 1940s (and I still have not checked whether this actually happened), it would be held to be an unlawful act by the ICJ. And it would have to withdraw its troops. And doing so would have nothing to do with the issue of Thai authorities accepting the French map a decade ago.
You said: “Before the French came in the region, all of Cambodia (and more) was “under control” of Siam”
-I am not an expert on Thailand history at all, but I think there had been argument whether at that time Siam was actually a ‘state’ (read Thongchai Winichakul “Siam Mapped” where he said the concept of statehood was relatively a new concept in that era.).
Anyways, as I said above, the point of discussion was not about whether the French had done during the reign of King Rama V was lawful. There was really no law at that time that invasion was unlawful, and the newly-introduced legal principle in the 1940s that invasion is unlawful has no retrospective effect. (if the law has retrospective effect then Khmers can go to ICJ and argue that Thailand used to be under Khmer rule during the 7th century, thus Thailand should cease to exist and it should become part of Cambodia).
It is sad, I admit, that Thailand lost the case. But I believe we lost because the civil servants at that era ‘could not have cared less’, to really study the map before accepting it. Thai government should make clear to all the Thais that we have lost, and they should not distort this issue for their own political gain.
The PAD’s “don’t vote for animals” campaign reveals that they regard Peua Thai supporters (and the rest of “them”) from Isaan as subhuman…
Hate to spoil a good rant but I think most of us understood the animals to represent the politicians standing for parliament. You know that’s why they say ‘don’t vote for them’.
The ‘no vote’ isn’t something I’m hoping for or agree with, but I see no reason to make up stuff about the campaign which, by the way, hurts the Abhisit vote far more than the Phue Thai vote.
Maybe time to reflect for those who said on New Mandala there would be no election this year. Those who said the wicked fascist Abhisit regime and the Falangist elite would never allow the public to have another election should also wonder why they got it so wrong.
Just ponder a little, “if you got this so wrong, what else have you got wrong?”
Fair points, all. The number of seats in question is, of course, 11, not 12. It’s equally true that I have not “busted any myths”, as my choice of the word “debunking” implies. I am aware that observers such as yourself, party strategists and local people in the Deep South recognize that Pattani, Narathiwat and Yala lie outside of the Democrat-controlled South, but I do feel that this fact is left out of most national level discussions and polls. My aim here was simply to highlight that fact.
How do you explain the doubling of the price of palm oil, or of sugar, under the Democrats? The farmers certainly aren’t getting the extra money that is being charged for commodities, so it must be the greedy middlemen! Guess who they support?
Regarding his moral policy, Abhisit’s use of pronouns made it quite clear that he wanted “it” (the animals), removed from Ratchaprasong with lethal force during May 2010. [The PAD’s “don’t vote for animals” campaign reveals that they regard Peua Thai supporters (and the rest of “them”) from Isaan as subhuman, fit only for slavery and subservient status in Thai society.] This nastiness fuels a great deal of resentment and explains why Abhisit is not welcome to travel through the North and Northeast. Despite this, even though neither he nor his policies are loved by the great unwashed masses, he was accorded politeness during his recent tours of the region.
@joeprajae
“his poor economic and moral policy”
This is an interesting opinion, but it would be even more interesting to have it supported with facts …
On the economic point of view, in the context of the world crisis (which dated 2008 too !) I do not see in the figures any proof of poor performance for Thailand …
I know that a government does not make the economy (alone) but for me the fact is here !
On the moral point of view, the “performance” is yet far more greater, Abhisit was recognized everywhere as a “moderate” dropped in the middle of violent mobs, harassed by mobs (his car, his home), theatened by mobs and prevented even to travel in his country by the mob …
I do not remember any speech where he asked his supporters to resort to violence, to burn cities, to kill anyone who dare to oppose his views, and THAT is a HUGE difference.
@CT
(Ah, Godwin’s Law 5555)
Before the French came in the region, all of Cambodia (and more) was “under control” of Siam, and the border defined (watershed, in the Treaties) was of a “bite” taken from Siam to build The French Empire in the region !
The imperialists were the French, the coercion was French, the pen to sign the treaties was French, and the gun aimed at the temple of the Siamese was French, it was NOT the contrary !
No Siamese gunboat ever blockaded the river Seine, nor got at gun range of Paris …
In Europe, it is “the far right” (sometimes neo-nazis) that praise the “good time of the colonies”, because they (still) profess the same racism which professed the French of the colonial period !
Coming to South-East Asia with gunboats to forge an Empire is deemed “legal” but re-occupying some of the ground “ceded” is “illegal” ?
Now, that is really funny 5555
France “signed” a lot of “accords” with Japan in the 1940s, how come they were not implemented, why not submit the case to the ICJ ? LOL
What you call “International Law” is -for the main part- “The Law Of
The Mighty West” and this is why it is irrelevant in this stupid border
dispute !
The damages made by colonization in the case of Thailand/Laos is even greater than for Thailand/Cambodia …
Thailand and Laos share quite the same language, the same culture and traditions, the same religion but nowadays one country is “liberal” and the other is communist !
Cars do not drive on the same side of the road, railways are not spaced the same and so on, so the exchanges between the 2 are minimal …
As one looks in History, border demarcation (look at the one between France and Germany) is ALWAYS solved by “bilateral things” (wars, occupations, and preferably DISCUSSIONS).
I have my doubt on Crispin’s sources and the motives (of his sources). Though I would not deny that this is a very interesting gossip, I would try to balance my judment and weigh this type of analysis. It’s getting more intriguing now that the yellow shirts have split up and started plotting the plans/stories against one another. More rumours have risen over the past week and they have gotten more and more intense as we are approaching the the election day. It will be even more interesting to see how things will actually turn out in the coming days and months after the election results.
Simon #12, I agree with Bkk Post being a business first. But isn’t that the same as Suthichai’s The Nation? And we all know the value of that paper.
john francis lee #11, most of the media in Thailand has taken sides anyhow. Thairath has several articles including the editorial that are very much Democrat leaning. Daily News is another. In fact, I don’t think there is one ‘neutral’ paper left in the country.
But yes, seeing Bkk Post stoop to this level is still a sad sight.
The south is not so much ‘pro Democrat’ as they are ‘anti-Thaksin’. The Tak Bai massacre, the Kru Se Mosque massacre and his insulting comments about the separatists being ‘bandits’ (followed by the Narathiwat armoury raid reprisals and a major step up in the violence).
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Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
Angelo Michel
I’ve your post over and over and I dont even know where to start, but here’s what you said in post 20.
The thing is, when the ICJ made their decision in 1962, the main evidence that the cambodian use against us is a picture taken in 1930 of Prince Damrong standing at the summit of the temple with a French flag waving which is the sign that he actually standing on the French (Cambodian) soil. In addition, Thailand made to contest to any of the agreement regarding the border for over 50 years. During the 2nd WW we invade France because we are part of the Axis, not because we didn’t agree with demarcation !.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
LesAbbey – 155
When the UDD was protesting infront of Prem’s house (they weren’t wearing Red then) there were not as many diverse group of people in the UDD then comparing to what they are now. CM51 group was radical but if you follow the red a bit seriously, not trough the mainstream media anyway, you should’ve know that CM51 is pretty much dissolved and there are many more group formed afterward. This was because CM51 was too radical so many people just left the group. If you want to meet a gay red shirt I will gladly introduce you to some, the one that I know are very well off and actually are part of BKK elite societyl
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
Lots of voters out early in our part of Bangkok but very threatening black skies above right now, 09:30.
New Mandala turns five!
[…] to support social issues. That passion has been documented in the very respected NewMandala blog at http://www.newmandala.org/2011/06/16/new-mandala-turns-five. Members of CASE are very lucky in the sense that Australian based organisations don’t have […]
Debunking Democrat dominance in the South
c3 & c6
Thanks, Doug, for a frank response. My earlier comment was intended constructively and I repeat that I found the comparison of South vs “Deep South” very useful – and very necessary.
It does seem to suit the Dem agenda to blur the distinction – claiming that the three provinces are politically “theirs” just as much as the ones to the north are; and also to suit a general Dem/Thai mindset that tries to avoid seeing the three provinces as in any way a “separate” entity.
As per c5, I don’t see those three provinces as being pro-Dem. Why would they be? It’s not as if the Dems have actually done anything progressive or even anything much that’s helpful for them. Abhisit ridiculed the proposal to expand industry there. The Oxford economics graduate seems blinded to the benefits that increased employment would bring. Cliche as it is, it’s worth remembering: “The devil makes work for idle hands to do”. Northern Ireland before and Gaza now – are there really not enough examples to teach this lesson?
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
James Alex – 154
Gay pride parades are not a red shirt issue, red shirts are no more homophobic than the general population and there are many, many gay red shirts.
And yet James Alex where were these gay red shirts when the homophobic attacks outside Prem’s house were going on a couple of years back? Were they still in the closet?
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
@Angelo Michel
You said: “Coming to South-East Asia with gunboats to forge an Empire is deemed “legal” but re-occupying some of the ground “ceded” is “illegal” ?”
-Angelo, I think you did not read what I wrote above carefully or you misunderstood what I wrote. What I said above was ‘invasion’ is probably not unlawful 200 years ago (during the period of colonisation), but in 1940, it was unlawful.
It was never the point of discussion of whether what the Western nations have done during the period of colonisation were lawful or not. During the period of colonisation, there was no ICJ. So whether what the French had done during colonisation period is unlawful or not will always remain a moot point because there was no venue to decide on this at that time anyway.
ICJ had been established in 1940s, and at this time invasion into other state’s territory was deemed to be unlawful. My point, thus, is if Thailand actually invaded into Cambodia around 1940s (and I still have not checked whether this actually happened), it would be held to be an unlawful act by the ICJ. And it would have to withdraw its troops. And doing so would have nothing to do with the issue of Thai authorities accepting the French map a decade ago.
You said: “Before the French came in the region, all of Cambodia (and more) was “under control” of Siam”
-I am not an expert on Thailand history at all, but I think there had been argument whether at that time Siam was actually a ‘state’ (read Thongchai Winichakul “Siam Mapped” where he said the concept of statehood was relatively a new concept in that era.).
Anyways, as I said above, the point of discussion was not about whether the French had done during the reign of King Rama V was lawful. There was really no law at that time that invasion was unlawful, and the newly-introduced legal principle in the 1940s that invasion is unlawful has no retrospective effect. (if the law has retrospective effect then Khmers can go to ICJ and argue that Thailand used to be under Khmer rule during the 7th century, thus Thailand should cease to exist and it should become part of Cambodia).
It is sad, I admit, that Thailand lost the case. But I believe we lost because the civil servants at that era ‘could not have cared less’, to really study the map before accepting it. Thai government should make clear to all the Thais that we have lost, and they should not distort this issue for their own political gain.
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
Arthurson – 26
The PAD’s “don’t vote for animals” campaign reveals that they regard Peua Thai supporters (and the rest of “them”) from Isaan as subhuman…
Hate to spoil a good rant but I think most of us understood the animals to represent the politicians standing for parliament. You know that’s why they say ‘don’t vote for them’.
The ‘no vote’ isn’t something I’m hoping for or agree with, but I see no reason to make up stuff about the campaign which, by the way, hurts the Abhisit vote far more than the Phue Thai vote.
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
Vote buying is apparently ok, but applying the law to parties that gets busted for it is ‘legal manipulation’?
Some kind of inconsistency here?
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
Maybe time to reflect for those who said on New Mandala there would be no election this year. Those who said the wicked fascist Abhisit regime and the Falangist elite would never allow the public to have another election should also wonder why they got it so wrong.
Just ponder a little, “if you got this so wrong, what else have you got wrong?”
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
Good commentary on Thailand’s election-day social media ban on political comment.
Debunking Democrat dominance in the South
Marc Askew,
Fair points, all. The number of seats in question is, of course, 11, not 12. It’s equally true that I have not “busted any myths”, as my choice of the word “debunking” implies. I am aware that observers such as yourself, party strategists and local people in the Deep South recognize that Pattani, Narathiwat and Yala lie outside of the Democrat-controlled South, but I do feel that this fact is left out of most national level discussions and polls. My aim here was simply to highlight that fact.
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
Yingluck voting: http://yfrog.com/h4k3wpvzj
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
Angelo Michel,
How do you explain the doubling of the price of palm oil, or of sugar, under the Democrats? The farmers certainly aren’t getting the extra money that is being charged for commodities, so it must be the greedy middlemen! Guess who they support?
Regarding his moral policy, Abhisit’s use of pronouns made it quite clear that he wanted “it” (the animals), removed from Ratchaprasong with lethal force during May 2010. [The PAD’s “don’t vote for animals” campaign reveals that they regard Peua Thai supporters (and the rest of “them”) from Isaan as subhuman, fit only for slavery and subservient status in Thai society.] This nastiness fuels a great deal of resentment and explains why Abhisit is not welcome to travel through the North and Northeast. Despite this, even though neither he nor his policies are loved by the great unwashed masses, he was accorded politeness during his recent tours of the region.
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
@joeprajae
“his poor economic and moral policy”
This is an interesting opinion, but it would be even more interesting to have it supported with facts …
On the economic point of view, in the context of the world crisis (which dated 2008 too !) I do not see in the figures any proof of poor performance for Thailand …
I know that a government does not make the economy (alone) but for me the fact is here !
On the moral point of view, the “performance” is yet far more greater, Abhisit was recognized everywhere as a “moderate” dropped in the middle of violent mobs, harassed by mobs (his car, his home), theatened by mobs and prevented even to travel in his country by the mob …
I do not remember any speech where he asked his supporters to resort to violence, to burn cities, to kill anyone who dare to oppose his views, and THAT is a HUGE difference.
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
@CT
(Ah, Godwin’s Law 5555)
Before the French came in the region, all of Cambodia (and more) was “under control” of Siam, and the border defined (watershed, in the Treaties) was of a “bite” taken from Siam to build The French Empire in the region !
The imperialists were the French, the coercion was French, the pen to sign the treaties was French, and the gun aimed at the temple of the Siamese was French, it was NOT the contrary !
No Siamese gunboat ever blockaded the river Seine, nor got at gun range of Paris …
In Europe, it is “the far right” (sometimes neo-nazis) that praise the “good time of the colonies”, because they (still) profess the same racism which professed the French of the colonial period !
Coming to South-East Asia with gunboats to forge an Empire is deemed “legal” but re-occupying some of the ground “ceded” is “illegal” ?
Now, that is really funny 5555
France “signed” a lot of “accords” with Japan in the 1940s, how come they were not implemented, why not submit the case to the ICJ ? LOL
What you call “International Law” is -for the main part- “The Law Of
The Mighty West” and this is why it is irrelevant in this stupid border
dispute !
The damages made by colonization in the case of Thailand/Laos is even greater than for Thailand/Cambodia …
Thailand and Laos share quite the same language, the same culture and traditions, the same religion but nowadays one country is “liberal” and the other is communist !
Cars do not drive on the same side of the road, railways are not spaced the same and so on, so the exchanges between the 2 are minimal …
As one looks in History, border demarcation (look at the one between France and Germany) is ALWAYS solved by “bilateral things” (wars, occupations, and preferably DISCUSSIONS).
2011 Thai election coverage
Billy Budd – 1
I have my doubt on Crispin’s sources and the motives (of his sources). Though I would not deny that this is a very interesting gossip, I would try to balance my judment and weigh this type of analysis. It’s getting more intriguing now that the yellow shirts have split up and started plotting the plans/stories against one another. More rumours have risen over the past week and they have gotten more and more intense as we are approaching the the election day. It will be even more interesting to see how things will actually turn out in the coming days and months after the election results.
2011 Thai election coverage
Update at the night before election:
– Thousands of people esp. from North, Northeast, are stuck at the bus station in Bangkok as there are not enough buses to go back home.
The MD of Bus Transportation denied responsibility claiming he didn’t expect this number of people, also the EC didn’t ask him to prepare the buses.
Thailand’s electoral rules
Simon #12, I agree with Bkk Post being a business first. But isn’t that the same as Suthichai’s The Nation? And we all know the value of that paper.
john francis lee #11, most of the media in Thailand has taken sides anyhow. Thairath has several articles including the editorial that are very much Democrat leaning. Daily News is another. In fact, I don’t think there is one ‘neutral’ paper left in the country.
But yes, seeing Bkk Post stoop to this level is still a sad sight.
Debunking Democrat dominance in the South
The south is not so much ‘pro Democrat’ as they are ‘anti-Thaksin’. The Tak Bai massacre, the Kru Se Mosque massacre and his insulting comments about the separatists being ‘bandits’ (followed by the Narathiwat armoury raid reprisals and a major step up in the violence).
They hate the ground he walks on.