Thank you, JJ, for taking the time to actually answer a question about fundamental values. It is a rare thing on New Mandala, as it is everywhere on the internet, for anyone to bother to do so.
As I hope I have made clear, I support the right of all people everywhere to achieve the same level of rights protection as Canadians have in their charter.
Where I have doubts, as I tried to make clear in my example of American economic pressure denying Canadians their democratic right to elect a government that has promised legislation that they want to see enacted, is where the “universality” of human rights conflicts with democracy and the right of a people to choose the system of government and the legal structures under which they will live.
Liberal-democracy is indeed a wonderful system. I am thankful for having been raised and educated within such a framework before the plague of neoliberalism started hollowing out the meaning of democracy and substituting in its place the dual determinisms of human rights and market economics.
If the people of Indonesia are denied the right to elect governments that govern in accordance with their religious or their moral/ethical principles and must instead adapt themselves to a set of social standards that emerged out of the liberation movements that followed fast on the heels of the civil rights movement in the US and the broader west, how will they ever really relate to “democratic values”?
That is if they relate at all.
When electorates oppose “austerity” and elect socialist governments as happened in Greece, the realities of the market are invoked to deny their right to govern themselves as they choose.
When an electorate chooses to leave the neoliberal embrace of the EU, as has happened recently with Brexit, they are excoriated as racist xenophobes and on that basis will no doubt see their democratically determined decision undermined to the point of meaninglessness.
Trump and his henchmen-to-be are going to be the folks in charge of deciding what “universals” will be inflicted on the world for the next 4 years. He is being labeled a “populist”, just as Thaksin and all his pro-poor reforms are dismissed as “populist” by the Yellow factions in Thailand.
The author of this piece clearly suspects that any Indonesian administration that deviates from the “universals” is somehow doing so under the table by “infiltrating” government, which is just another way of suggesting that they are giving in to “populist” pressures.
It seems that in many ways the “democratic” half of the liberal-democratic equation is slowly being turned into “populism” so that it can be attacked by the chattering classes before being utterly crushed so that pure “liberalism” can take its place.
The problem with that, of course, is that although it may warm the cockles of HR defenders’ hearts all over the globe, everyone knows that when the universality of human rights conflicts with the universality of market economics it is the market that has the guns.
At some point, I suspect, there will be a great weeping and wailing that in our rush to impose universal human rights alongside market economics we lost the control mechanism that democratic structures provide.
If liberalism acts as a check on unrestrained democracy, then it is also true that democracy is there to restrain the deracinated theoreticals of liberalism. Having one without the other is not necessarily half as good as having both.
Liberal authoritarianism,here we come?
It may even one day be called the Beijing Consensus the way things are going.
Oh please. What China did is no different to what the US did decades ago. Leveraging on their power, knowledge and wealth to gain influence and manipulate independent nation. While promoting “democracy” at the same time supporting despot and dictators. What else is new? And now you claim we should get back under US influence? Are you for real?
The US who has moved on from the physical dominance of old into the digital dominance with all their surveillance? Who has no regard for any person or nation privacy? That US you want ASEAN to get back under?
Face it. The only protection against China is freedom of speech and democracy. And not another would be Power Monger (US, Europe, ANYONE). Look at Indonesia and how they have multiple times denied China access to their territorial water because it is highly publicized and perceived by the population as a very popular move by the government. Indonesia has time and again face off against China in the ocean and repelled the Chinese. Freedom of press, freedom of speech, and democracy the only protection any country needs against China.
Unfortunately it is not yet applicable to most of ASEAN yet.
Narisara writes, “Ever since the untimely death of his elder brother, King Ananda, the young Prince Bhumibol became reclusive and rarely gave interviews. He was also rarely seen in public, except to deliver the sporadic New Year or birthday speech.”
Khun Narisara has only one mirror, i.e. a distorting one. Since 1960’s to 1970’s the monarch traveled around Thailand, especially the northern, the northeastern and the southern parts, and especially the poor rural areas. He met people and learned their problems that were ignored by the then governments. That pushed him into land and soil development for the rural people all over the country.
Bleeding hearts liberals – think of the human dimension in a drug infested country… please. Look at Mexico as an example if Phillipines is too near to you.
Great tribute to a very great intellectual, who made very fine efforts to avoid nuclear holocaust – by practical means. I say this having only yesterday seen @Sydney’s Japan Film Festival, the excellent – but of course : emotive – film Nagasaki, Memories of My Son.
I fled the country when I was 17 the moment I had the chance because I was way too traumatized with my life experiences growing up. At the moment, it was fleeing and seeking a refuge elsewhere or suicide. Sometimes I still have nightmares about waking up in a country where fears were everywhere, I never felt safe, I wasn’t alive then, I was waiting to die, either from suicide or becoming a victim; rape, molestation, sexual battery, torture, bullying, conversion therapy, discrimination, neglect, abandonment, brainwashing, harassment, religious doctrines, … etc. Maybe I was a coward, but I had no fights left in me, it took me 12 years to feel alive, free and human again. I could never forget though. Today I’m in a better place but I think I’m gonna need a lifetime therapy to keep going. The only thing I’m thankful and felt lucky was that I had that chance to flee.
It is a long way for LGBT Indonesians to have the same rights as LGBT Canadians. But, I’m sure that most LGBT Indonesians would want progressive movements or at least one step forward and they need all the supports they can have. Debating about EQUINE rights in Canada won’t change what’s happening to LGBT Indonesians. Are you guys familiar with the Chinese Indonesian ethnic cleansing in 1998? As far as I know, many members of the group fled the country, and I forgot how the situation was handled later on but it would be a shame for Indonesia if many LGBT Indonesians will flee the country and seek refuge elsewhere.
Yes I think that the basic human rights are universal values because everyone has the right to pursue happiness, right to life, liberty, personal security, free of discrimination, prejudice, freedom from degrading treatment, housing equality, right to recognition as a person regardless sexual identities and sexual orientations. Everybody is different, there are different religions, beliefs, races, ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations and identities, nationalities, etc), whether certain community is a majority or a minority, it doesn’t mean that one should have more rights or less rights than the others.
For example, if a large number of Muslim Indonesian extremists think that LGBT members need to be prosecuted and treated as less than human, that means that these extremists don’t share the same values and don’t respect human basic rights, just because they are the majority, does it mean it’s the right thing to impose on the minority? I don’t think so, sometimes we all have to fight and stand up for what’s right and people with power such as government entities should support the oppressed citizens. Historically, for example, if there was no fight in regards to slavery, women’s rights, ethnicity cleansing, colonization and so on, where would we be? What would we become?
If an LGBT youth is treated badly by the community because the community believes that being LGBT is wrong or unacceptable, shouldn’t there be something to be done? No one should stand and fight alone, human beings always need support from their community.
I definitely do not support Trump and of course I’m hoping that the UN will always do the best to fulfill their mission and vision.
Both conservatives and liberals have their own extremists, there is always the good and the bad, but, it is important to always support human rights and equality for everyone, it’s the birth rights. Just because a community think that one shouldn’t be treated better doesn’t mean that we should let them be, one less victim, one less bullying, one less LGBT person on depression or committing suicide, anything should help to create a better future.
That’s what I think and what I believe, and again, human rights should never be politicized.
Thank you! What a remarkable perceptive article on the situation. Unfortunately the commentary can be almost equally applied to other areas, such as Africa. China has been using its ‘soft power’ approach vigorously around the world for some years now, and so little valid commentary seems to have been presented. Extend the argument to China’s new relationships with Putin’s Russia, its continuing support of North Korea and you have a picture of a New World Order of dangerous dimensions looming.
I feel that Taylor is so emotional when he writes, “If the reader feels it is not true, then why should s/he be so concerned?” in response to Khun Sek Wannamethee’s letter. If it was true, why is he concerned?
While it is natural for Canadians to take ‘pot’ shots at Yanks, please refrain from doing so. It is not germane to this discussion, regardless of whom is President or PM in Ottawa (and I speak as a former Canadian Resident). The issue is LGBT rights in Indonesia and how they can be implemented fairly, recognizing the rights of those who may not agree with non-heterosexuality, but do so in a civilized manner. Inevitably, I am afraid this will become politicized, like everything else in Indonesia, right Monsieur Wilson ?
Canada has full LGBT rights. Hardly fair to compare Canada to Indonesia. PM Trudeau and President Jokowi have as much in common as the Indonesian police and the RCMP. Maybe we should discuss EQUINE rights in Canada ?
That is true of most non-Western nations. Would you have made the same comment had President Buhari of Nigeria offered the same congratulations ? I doubt it. Most critics of the Lee family simply lack the courage to state unambiguously that they hate them and couch their criticisms in solipsistic language.
If I understand you correctly, JJ, you are suggesting that “basic human rights” are a set of universal values which should be enforced in every human community whether or not the members of that community actually share the values.
Who would you have take the responsibility for denying Indonesians their democratic rights and their national sovereignty?
Would you prefer that Trump’s America be the moral guardians of the planet or would you leave that to the UN?
I of course would support the right of LGBT people and everyone else in Indonesia or anywhere to have the same freedoms guaranteed in the Canadian charter.
I feel certain that with my support, and $4, anyone in Jakarta could get themselves a triple mocha at Starbucks, gay, trans or cis-gendered white man.
“Diversity” is a wonderful thing, until the divergence is one of values.
Then a “liberal” turns into– dare I say it?– a kind of fascist totalitarian who refuses to even consider the possibility that their sense of what is right and what is wrong may not be true for all people everywhere.
Michael Wilson, do you think that LGBT Indonesians don’t deserve their basic human rights like any other LGBT members from other countries such as Canada, etc? Where do you stand when or if LGBT Indonesians are being prosecuted and discriminated by a larger majority group of Indonesian people?
Well, as of this point, it’s all anecdotal. However, the funerary rituals, that are being streamed daily, via television, print media and the Internet, into almost every Thai home seem to be successfully perpetuating the glory prestige and majesty of the monarchy.
The attendance of hundreds of thousands ( and possibly millions over the next year ) of people seems to indicate that the cultural religious and political hold of Thai kingship over the masses remains extremely powerful.
Furthermore, the central role of the crown prince in these rituals almost certainly helps to elevate his stature amongst the masses.
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Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
Thank you, JJ, for taking the time to actually answer a question about fundamental values. It is a rare thing on New Mandala, as it is everywhere on the internet, for anyone to bother to do so.
As I hope I have made clear, I support the right of all people everywhere to achieve the same level of rights protection as Canadians have in their charter.
Where I have doubts, as I tried to make clear in my example of American economic pressure denying Canadians their democratic right to elect a government that has promised legislation that they want to see enacted, is where the “universality” of human rights conflicts with democracy and the right of a people to choose the system of government and the legal structures under which they will live.
Liberal-democracy is indeed a wonderful system. I am thankful for having been raised and educated within such a framework before the plague of neoliberalism started hollowing out the meaning of democracy and substituting in its place the dual determinisms of human rights and market economics.
If the people of Indonesia are denied the right to elect governments that govern in accordance with their religious or their moral/ethical principles and must instead adapt themselves to a set of social standards that emerged out of the liberation movements that followed fast on the heels of the civil rights movement in the US and the broader west, how will they ever really relate to “democratic values”?
That is if they relate at all.
When electorates oppose “austerity” and elect socialist governments as happened in Greece, the realities of the market are invoked to deny their right to govern themselves as they choose.
When an electorate chooses to leave the neoliberal embrace of the EU, as has happened recently with Brexit, they are excoriated as racist xenophobes and on that basis will no doubt see their democratically determined decision undermined to the point of meaninglessness.
Trump and his henchmen-to-be are going to be the folks in charge of deciding what “universals” will be inflicted on the world for the next 4 years. He is being labeled a “populist”, just as Thaksin and all his pro-poor reforms are dismissed as “populist” by the Yellow factions in Thailand.
The author of this piece clearly suspects that any Indonesian administration that deviates from the “universals” is somehow doing so under the table by “infiltrating” government, which is just another way of suggesting that they are giving in to “populist” pressures.
It seems that in many ways the “democratic” half of the liberal-democratic equation is slowly being turned into “populism” so that it can be attacked by the chattering classes before being utterly crushed so that pure “liberalism” can take its place.
The problem with that, of course, is that although it may warm the cockles of HR defenders’ hearts all over the globe, everyone knows that when the universality of human rights conflicts with the universality of market economics it is the market that has the guns.
At some point, I suspect, there will be a great weeping and wailing that in our rush to impose universal human rights alongside market economics we lost the control mechanism that democratic structures provide.
If liberalism acts as a check on unrestrained democracy, then it is also true that democracy is there to restrain the deracinated theoreticals of liberalism. Having one without the other is not necessarily half as good as having both.
Liberal authoritarianism,here we come?
It may even one day be called the Beijing Consensus the way things are going.
The east is red
Oh please. What China did is no different to what the US did decades ago. Leveraging on their power, knowledge and wealth to gain influence and manipulate independent nation. While promoting “democracy” at the same time supporting despot and dictators. What else is new? And now you claim we should get back under US influence? Are you for real?
The US who has moved on from the physical dominance of old into the digital dominance with all their surveillance? Who has no regard for any person or nation privacy? That US you want ASEAN to get back under?
Face it. The only protection against China is freedom of speech and democracy. And not another would be Power Monger (US, Europe, ANYONE). Look at Indonesia and how they have multiple times denied China access to their territorial water because it is highly publicized and perceived by the population as a very popular move by the government. Indonesia has time and again face off against China in the ocean and repelled the Chinese. Freedom of press, freedom of speech, and democracy the only protection any country needs against China.
Unfortunately it is not yet applicable to most of ASEAN yet.
The cult of a dead king
Narisara writes, “Ever since the untimely death of his elder brother, King Ananda, the young Prince Bhumibol became reclusive and rarely gave interviews. He was also rarely seen in public, except to deliver the sporadic New Year or birthday speech.”
Khun Narisara has only one mirror, i.e. a distorting one. Since 1960’s to 1970’s the monarch traveled around Thailand, especially the northern, the northeastern and the southern parts, and especially the poor rural areas. He met people and learned their problems that were ignored by the then governments. That pushed him into land and soil development for the rural people all over the country.
The east is red
Just exactly what or who is Dennis Ignatius complaining so bitterly about? Chinese communism? Chinese capitalism? or the Chinese as a race of people?
The human cost of Duterte’s drug war
Bleeding hearts liberals – think of the human dimension in a drug infested country… please. Look at Mexico as an example if Phillipines is too near to you.
Marks of a good Malaysian leader
The leader that can not be replace. i agree how he act about racism among people . Malaysian people should think like Tun Dr Ismail thinking.
Professor Des Ball AO: the insurgent intellectual
Great tribute to a very great intellectual, who made very fine efforts to avoid nuclear holocaust – by practical means. I say this having only yesterday seen @Sydney’s Japan Film Festival, the excellent – but of course : emotive – film Nagasaki, Memories of My Son.
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
Or alternatively Michael Wilson : surrendering governments autonomy to preferences of China ?
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
I fled the country when I was 17 the moment I had the chance because I was way too traumatized with my life experiences growing up. At the moment, it was fleeing and seeking a refuge elsewhere or suicide. Sometimes I still have nightmares about waking up in a country where fears were everywhere, I never felt safe, I wasn’t alive then, I was waiting to die, either from suicide or becoming a victim; rape, molestation, sexual battery, torture, bullying, conversion therapy, discrimination, neglect, abandonment, brainwashing, harassment, religious doctrines, … etc. Maybe I was a coward, but I had no fights left in me, it took me 12 years to feel alive, free and human again. I could never forget though. Today I’m in a better place but I think I’m gonna need a lifetime therapy to keep going. The only thing I’m thankful and felt lucky was that I had that chance to flee.
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
It is a long way for LGBT Indonesians to have the same rights as LGBT Canadians. But, I’m sure that most LGBT Indonesians would want progressive movements or at least one step forward and they need all the supports they can have. Debating about EQUINE rights in Canada won’t change what’s happening to LGBT Indonesians. Are you guys familiar with the Chinese Indonesian ethnic cleansing in 1998? As far as I know, many members of the group fled the country, and I forgot how the situation was handled later on but it would be a shame for Indonesia if many LGBT Indonesians will flee the country and seek refuge elsewhere.
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
Yes I think that the basic human rights are universal values because everyone has the right to pursue happiness, right to life, liberty, personal security, free of discrimination, prejudice, freedom from degrading treatment, housing equality, right to recognition as a person regardless sexual identities and sexual orientations. Everybody is different, there are different religions, beliefs, races, ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations and identities, nationalities, etc), whether certain community is a majority or a minority, it doesn’t mean that one should have more rights or less rights than the others.
For example, if a large number of Muslim Indonesian extremists think that LGBT members need to be prosecuted and treated as less than human, that means that these extremists don’t share the same values and don’t respect human basic rights, just because they are the majority, does it mean it’s the right thing to impose on the minority? I don’t think so, sometimes we all have to fight and stand up for what’s right and people with power such as government entities should support the oppressed citizens. Historically, for example, if there was no fight in regards to slavery, women’s rights, ethnicity cleansing, colonization and so on, where would we be? What would we become?
If an LGBT youth is treated badly by the community because the community believes that being LGBT is wrong or unacceptable, shouldn’t there be something to be done? No one should stand and fight alone, human beings always need support from their community.
I definitely do not support Trump and of course I’m hoping that the UN will always do the best to fulfill their mission and vision.
Both conservatives and liberals have their own extremists, there is always the good and the bad, but, it is important to always support human rights and equality for everyone, it’s the birth rights. Just because a community think that one shouldn’t be treated better doesn’t mean that we should let them be, one less victim, one less bullying, one less LGBT person on depression or committing suicide, anything should help to create a better future.
That’s what I think and what I believe, and again, human rights should never be politicized.
The east is red
Thank you! What a remarkable perceptive article on the situation. Unfortunately the commentary can be almost equally applied to other areas, such as Africa. China has been using its ‘soft power’ approach vigorously around the world for some years now, and so little valid commentary seems to have been presented. Extend the argument to China’s new relationships with Putin’s Russia, its continuing support of North Korea and you have a picture of a New World Order of dangerous dimensions looming.
A response to the Thai government
I feel that Taylor is so emotional when he writes, “If the reader feels it is not true, then why should s/he be so concerned?” in response to Khun Sek Wannamethee’s letter. If it was true, why is he concerned?
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
While it is natural for Canadians to take ‘pot’ shots at Yanks, please refrain from doing so. It is not germane to this discussion, regardless of whom is President or PM in Ottawa (and I speak as a former Canadian Resident). The issue is LGBT rights in Indonesia and how they can be implemented fairly, recognizing the rights of those who may not agree with non-heterosexuality, but do so in a civilized manner. Inevitably, I am afraid this will become politicized, like everything else in Indonesia, right Monsieur Wilson ?
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
Canada has full LGBT rights. Hardly fair to compare Canada to Indonesia. PM Trudeau and President Jokowi have as much in common as the Indonesian police and the RCMP. Maybe we should discuss EQUINE rights in Canada ?
Singapore PM throws Trump major ‘shade’
That is true of most non-Western nations. Would you have made the same comment had President Buhari of Nigeria offered the same congratulations ? I doubt it. Most critics of the Lee family simply lack the courage to state unambiguously that they hate them and couch their criticisms in solipsistic language.
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
If I understand you correctly, JJ, you are suggesting that “basic human rights” are a set of universal values which should be enforced in every human community whether or not the members of that community actually share the values.
Who would you have take the responsibility for denying Indonesians their democratic rights and their national sovereignty?
Would you prefer that Trump’s America be the moral guardians of the planet or would you leave that to the UN?
I of course would support the right of LGBT people and everyone else in Indonesia or anywhere to have the same freedoms guaranteed in the Canadian charter.
I feel certain that with my support, and $4, anyone in Jakarta could get themselves a triple mocha at Starbucks, gay, trans or cis-gendered white man.
“Diversity” is a wonderful thing, until the divergence is one of values.
Then a “liberal” turns into– dare I say it?– a kind of fascist totalitarian who refuses to even consider the possibility that their sense of what is right and what is wrong may not be true for all people everywhere.
Singapore PM throws Trump major ‘shade’
‘Henry’ Lee is in no position to be ‘shading’ anybody. It’s “Pot meet kettle” as far as human rights go, if not worse.
Who constructed LGBT identity in Indonesia?
Michael Wilson, do you think that LGBT Indonesians don’t deserve their basic human rights like any other LGBT members from other countries such as Canada, etc? Where do you stand when or if LGBT Indonesians are being prosecuted and discriminated by a larger majority group of Indonesian people?
Soul of a nation
Well, as of this point, it’s all anecdotal. However, the funerary rituals, that are being streamed daily, via television, print media and the Internet, into almost every Thai home seem to be successfully perpetuating the glory prestige and majesty of the monarchy.
The attendance of hundreds of thousands ( and possibly millions over the next year ) of people seems to indicate that the cultural religious and political hold of Thai kingship over the masses remains extremely powerful.
Furthermore, the central role of the crown prince in these rituals almost certainly helps to elevate his stature amongst the masses.